- 31 July 2009
- 8,509
αυτο ειναι ενα ποστ που ετοιμασα για ενα αλλο φορουμ (κλειστο σκληρο στρατιωτικο)....ειναι στα αγγλικα και δεν προκειται να το μεταφρασω
A look at P60/D26 Drop-ins for Surefire
Well the issue comes up from time to time, so I better add some “inside” things....
(as a member of Candlepowerforums and Drop-in assembler myself)
There are two issues a buyer faces..Quality & price....
As things may be, one comes after the other.....There ARE overpriced modules. And as a CPFer I can both scrounge info and discover myself, in the sense of opening up modules and testing & measuring....(wish I was an electrical engineer to study circuit & part values)
P60 Modules: The Outside Look
Price: Yoy get what you pay for, mostly....
Some find The Malkoffs ultareliable, pricy (they are), overpriced...if you stick with me you will find out why they are NOT overpriced.
TNVC, OptiqsHQ (TLS China actually). For mhese are overpriced.....you will again find out latter...
One step down in price
Dereelight, Thrunite, Lumens Factory, Nailbender (custom)..The 3 first are build in chinese factories on each firmʼs specs on materials, the latter are handmade with chinese materials except the LEDs that are speced and picked for.
A bit Lower in price
Solarforce...use a reputable dealer, there are copies around. Almost as good as the manufacturers above...still good to pay for
The cheaop-stuff (i.e. DealExtreme) I am still buying them from time to time....It is cheaper if you buy them and cannibilaze the parts.I use them for Loaners, demos, experiments and backup lights.
P60 Modules: The Inside Look
The devil is in the details......What makes a Drop-in is the driver (electronics), the case and the LED...
When it come to drivers one will have to account f build quality (have seen off-centre soldered parts in cheap modules) and EFFICIENCY....That means how much energy a driver wastes as heat....80& efficient is the rule and I have never seen above 90% even on custom drivers. Generally good quality drivers on chinese moduels are 80% too, but in cheaper versions the figures start from 70 and go as low as 50%!!! This is stupid cos it is not only waste of dollars, battery runtime, but we donʼt want HEAT in our flashlight. Of Malkoff I do not know, I can guess it is good....
When it come to LEDs Usually only the output is advertised in its maximum value. (see bellow)....But there are some more technical things that I will not bore you off, other than the “bin” and the “tint”. Bin is a sorting method, cos the recipy of LED making never gives the same thing....So manufacturers sort them by output, color (tint) and some other stuff....Tint is the whiteness of the LED if you want it in simple terms. We have bluish, greenish, yellowish etc.
The Cheap chinese drop-ins are rather lousy in these, and to be honest there have been some purplish Makloffs....The Solarforces are rather good, the rest pretty good to excellent...
When it come to cases, the actuall drop-in itself, there is three issues.
You know there is a BIG problem..The P60 dropins are patch up work on turning a Surefire into LED and a high power one for the matter.....The issue is heat dissipation....if you are to paint a drop-in with marker and twist it in its socket, have someone to catch you when you faint....Contact area is unbelievably LOW.....So we have a driver that converts 20% of the supplied power into heat, and a LED that makes 70% heat out of its fed power....Scary ainʼt it? No woinder why Surefire has opted for a lower output.
One can make things better with foil or copper tape wrapping the module, but only one manufacturewr really tackled the issue....Guess Who....The pricey US guy. And BTW he pots/secures the driver in thermal epoxy too.
The other issue is gluing the LED. If anyone has experience with working with PC processors will know better than me that a glue/thermal past is applied in a specific way...VERY little just to fill any “gaps” of metal to metal contact....Now go dissasemble a cheap dropin (unscrew the reflector and remove the isolator disk aroun the LED) and see how much of thermal glue is around the LED. Fast, sloppy job and the thick layer is a KILLER.
The third issue suprisingly is central spring stiffness. Indeed...as power demands go up, electrical contact resistance becomes a factor. Combine this with a bit longish battery tube and you loose power/output (in an extreme case I have lost more than 30% in my 6P!!!!). Cheap chinese spring pressure is good to very good, Malkoff I do not know, Derrelight is low, the others are pretty good. As a rule of thub, if you can feel the battery moving lengthwise 1-2mm while the flashlight still runs, you may loosing some output.
BTW The 6P momentary tailcap robs you of 5+% power....But one should not sacrifice its function/reliability on this.
The Skinny
Buy Malkoff for any serious life-or-limb business.
If anything else costs more than 40-45 bucks and does not guarantee specific LED quality buy a Malkoff.
Malkoff is the ONLY US made drop-in.
LEDs are US tecnology made in Korea or US
Buy the others if you want to save some money.
Buy the cheap ones for recreational airsoft/secondary duties.
More Info
When 300 Lumens ainʼt....
Beware of the advertised Lumens....Cree XR-E R2 drop-ins are sold as 300 lumens..Actually the R2 is 290 at its maximum specʼed current driven....then we have glass & reflector losses, so pull that figure down by 25%. Then we have “bin” variation so you may loose another 15%! or win some 2-5%. Then there is actual LED/Driver cooperation and output loss from trapped heat....that will rob you of some more Lumens...in the end you may end up with 170-190 real lumens out of a cheap drop-in.
The Warm & Neutral tints
That is a big issue. Warm tints are those that emulate incandescent/xenon color. Usually they are marked as 5A, 5B, 5C, 7a etc…Neutrals are inbetween the “Cool” White which is “colder” than noon sun. One could describe Neutrals as when white light starts to get muddy….
What this has to do with you is that warm tints are considered est at depicting outdoor colors and showing better depth perception….
It is a big issue and you might have a look at this (you can skip all the technical words, the pics and animated gifs talk better)
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=277090
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=275751
The XP-Gs
The future is Here. A newer LED and more powerfull and efficient too...The secret is at the larger light emmitting surface. More than double that of the XRE LEDs. It is like running a bigger engien at lower Revs....
There is drawback....Beam width is proportionaly related to LED surface....Despite the increase in output the XPGs lack in throw and they may never recover...Itʼs like when using a hose.....You constrict the spout to send the watter further.....
So if you want your light to thow far stick with the XRE R2s
Reflector Surface
Smmoth surface (SMO) collects as much light as possible and makes a denser narrower ugly beam...Use Orange Peel (OP) surfaced one for a smoother wider beam.
Beam Comparison
The master, MrGman on youtube….http://www.youtube.com/user/MrGman9999#g/a
Drop-ins for AA batts
There have been some developments…..Now besides Malkoff there are others amufacturers like Derreliught that offer almost Full output on 2 Aa batts….taht means extending your ^p to 9P of course…
Thatʼs all for now, kostas
A look at P60/D26 Drop-ins for Surefire
Well the issue comes up from time to time, so I better add some “inside” things....
(as a member of Candlepowerforums and Drop-in assembler myself)
There are two issues a buyer faces..Quality & price....
As things may be, one comes after the other.....There ARE overpriced modules. And as a CPFer I can both scrounge info and discover myself, in the sense of opening up modules and testing & measuring....(wish I was an electrical engineer to study circuit & part values)
P60 Modules: The Outside Look
Price: Yoy get what you pay for, mostly....
Some find The Malkoffs ultareliable, pricy (they are), overpriced...if you stick with me you will find out why they are NOT overpriced.
TNVC, OptiqsHQ (TLS China actually). For mhese are overpriced.....you will again find out latter...
One step down in price
Dereelight, Thrunite, Lumens Factory, Nailbender (custom)..The 3 first are build in chinese factories on each firmʼs specs on materials, the latter are handmade with chinese materials except the LEDs that are speced and picked for.
A bit Lower in price
Solarforce...use a reputable dealer, there are copies around. Almost as good as the manufacturers above...still good to pay for
The cheaop-stuff (i.e. DealExtreme) I am still buying them from time to time....It is cheaper if you buy them and cannibilaze the parts.I use them for Loaners, demos, experiments and backup lights.
P60 Modules: The Inside Look
The devil is in the details......What makes a Drop-in is the driver (electronics), the case and the LED...
When it come to drivers one will have to account f build quality (have seen off-centre soldered parts in cheap modules) and EFFICIENCY....That means how much energy a driver wastes as heat....80& efficient is the rule and I have never seen above 90% even on custom drivers. Generally good quality drivers on chinese moduels are 80% too, but in cheaper versions the figures start from 70 and go as low as 50%!!! This is stupid cos it is not only waste of dollars, battery runtime, but we donʼt want HEAT in our flashlight. Of Malkoff I do not know, I can guess it is good....
When it come to LEDs Usually only the output is advertised in its maximum value. (see bellow)....But there are some more technical things that I will not bore you off, other than the “bin” and the “tint”. Bin is a sorting method, cos the recipy of LED making never gives the same thing....So manufacturers sort them by output, color (tint) and some other stuff....Tint is the whiteness of the LED if you want it in simple terms. We have bluish, greenish, yellowish etc.
The Cheap chinese drop-ins are rather lousy in these, and to be honest there have been some purplish Makloffs....The Solarforces are rather good, the rest pretty good to excellent...
When it come to cases, the actuall drop-in itself, there is three issues.
You know there is a BIG problem..The P60 dropins are patch up work on turning a Surefire into LED and a high power one for the matter.....The issue is heat dissipation....if you are to paint a drop-in with marker and twist it in its socket, have someone to catch you when you faint....Contact area is unbelievably LOW.....So we have a driver that converts 20% of the supplied power into heat, and a LED that makes 70% heat out of its fed power....Scary ainʼt it? No woinder why Surefire has opted for a lower output.
One can make things better with foil or copper tape wrapping the module, but only one manufacturewr really tackled the issue....Guess Who....The pricey US guy. And BTW he pots/secures the driver in thermal epoxy too.
The other issue is gluing the LED. If anyone has experience with working with PC processors will know better than me that a glue/thermal past is applied in a specific way...VERY little just to fill any “gaps” of metal to metal contact....Now go dissasemble a cheap dropin (unscrew the reflector and remove the isolator disk aroun the LED) and see how much of thermal glue is around the LED. Fast, sloppy job and the thick layer is a KILLER.
The third issue suprisingly is central spring stiffness. Indeed...as power demands go up, electrical contact resistance becomes a factor. Combine this with a bit longish battery tube and you loose power/output (in an extreme case I have lost more than 30% in my 6P!!!!). Cheap chinese spring pressure is good to very good, Malkoff I do not know, Derrelight is low, the others are pretty good. As a rule of thub, if you can feel the battery moving lengthwise 1-2mm while the flashlight still runs, you may loosing some output.
BTW The 6P momentary tailcap robs you of 5+% power....But one should not sacrifice its function/reliability on this.
The Skinny
Buy Malkoff for any serious life-or-limb business.
If anything else costs more than 40-45 bucks and does not guarantee specific LED quality buy a Malkoff.
Malkoff is the ONLY US made drop-in.
LEDs are US tecnology made in Korea or US
Buy the others if you want to save some money.
Buy the cheap ones for recreational airsoft/secondary duties.
More Info
When 300 Lumens ainʼt....
Beware of the advertised Lumens....Cree XR-E R2 drop-ins are sold as 300 lumens..Actually the R2 is 290 at its maximum specʼed current driven....then we have glass & reflector losses, so pull that figure down by 25%. Then we have “bin” variation so you may loose another 15%! or win some 2-5%. Then there is actual LED/Driver cooperation and output loss from trapped heat....that will rob you of some more Lumens...in the end you may end up with 170-190 real lumens out of a cheap drop-in.
The Warm & Neutral tints
That is a big issue. Warm tints are those that emulate incandescent/xenon color. Usually they are marked as 5A, 5B, 5C, 7a etc…Neutrals are inbetween the “Cool” White which is “colder” than noon sun. One could describe Neutrals as when white light starts to get muddy….
What this has to do with you is that warm tints are considered est at depicting outdoor colors and showing better depth perception….
It is a big issue and you might have a look at this (you can skip all the technical words, the pics and animated gifs talk better)
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=277090
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=275751
The XP-Gs
The future is Here. A newer LED and more powerfull and efficient too...The secret is at the larger light emmitting surface. More than double that of the XRE LEDs. It is like running a bigger engien at lower Revs....
There is drawback....Beam width is proportionaly related to LED surface....Despite the increase in output the XPGs lack in throw and they may never recover...Itʼs like when using a hose.....You constrict the spout to send the watter further.....
So if you want your light to thow far stick with the XRE R2s
Reflector Surface
Smmoth surface (SMO) collects as much light as possible and makes a denser narrower ugly beam...Use Orange Peel (OP) surfaced one for a smoother wider beam.
Beam Comparison
The master, MrGman on youtube….http://www.youtube.com/user/MrGman9999#g/a
Drop-ins for AA batts
There have been some developments…..Now besides Malkoff there are others amufacturers like Derreliught that offer almost Full output on 2 Aa batts….taht means extending your ^p to 9P of course…
Thatʼs all for now, kostas