HD D-ILA απο την JVC (HD-1/RS-1) + Mπαμπινος... (CHAT )

17 June 2006
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Τωρα που το σκεφτομαι, θα ηθελα πολυ να δω το ντιλα διπλα σε ενα "μαραντζακο" :drummer:

Πράγματι , θα είχε ενδιαφέρον κι ένα τέτοιο συγκριτικό, αν και πιστεύω ότι θα ήταν μόνο για εκπαιδευτικούς/εγκυκλοπαιδικούς λόγους.
Η διαφορά τιμής είναι το λιγότερο χαοτική και αποκλείεται αυτός που έχει θέσει budget για τον JVC να "τσοντάρει" κάτι τις ακόμα για να πάρει τον marantz όσο και καλύτερος να είναι.
 

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AVClub Fanatic
17 June 2006
10,575
Γιατι η διαφορα τιμης με τον crt που λετε , δεν υφιστατε ???? ( να μην πω για τον ογκο )
 
17 June 2006
23,769
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Φυσικά και όχι. Δεν υπάρχει τιμή σήμερα για τον crt. Ποιά τιμή; Το πόσο έκανε πριν 10 χρόνια; χαίρω πολύ....και ο HELIOS κόστιζε όσo 2 JVC !
Εγώ λέω για ένα συγκριτικό που να είχε και στόχο την διαμόρφωση άποψης για την τελική επιλογή από έναν υποψήφιο αγοραστή.
Αν είναι μόνο για εγκυκλοπαιδικούς λόγους, εντάξει.
 

Ntinos P

AVClub Fanatic
26 June 2006
22,938
Re: Απάντηση: HD D-ILA απο την JVC (HD-1/RS-1) + Mπαμπινος... (CHAT )

Φυσικά και όχι. Δεν υπάρχει τιμή σήμερα για τον crt. Ποιά τιμή; Το πόσο έκανε πριν 10 χρόνια; χαίρω πολύ....και ο HELIOS κόστιζε όσo 2 JVC !
Εγώ λέω για ένα συγκριτικό που να είχε και στόχο την διαμόρφωση άποψης για την τελική επιλογή από έναν υποψήφιο αγοραστή.
Αν είναι μόνο για εγκυκλοπαιδικούς λόγους, εντάξει.

Πλακα κανεις Τασο μαλλον.

Εμενα παντως ενα τετοιο συγκριτικο, μου φενεται οτι θα ειναι για να ικανοποιησει, κυριως την περιεργεια, αλλα και να "ανακουφισει" καποιους απο εμας....

:grinning-smiley-043

(θα ελεγα "εσας", αλλα δεν ειναι σικ)
 
17 June 2006
23,769
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Εμείς Ντίνο καλώς ή κακώς την κάναμε την επιλογή μας. Και καλύτερος να είναι ο marantz ή o Sharp προσωπικά δεν πρόκειται να τον "σκοτώσω" μυρίζοντας ακόμα καινουργίλα.
Να το ξέρεις όμως ότι υπάρχουν μέλη που είναι μπερδεμένα με όλα αυτά που έχουν γραφτεί εδώ μέσα και θα ήθελαν να δουν ένα συγκριτικό για να αποφασίσουν "ιδίοις όμασι".
 

Ntinos P

AVClub Fanatic
26 June 2006
22,938
Πάσο,

Υπαρχουν πολλοι ομως που τους ενδιαφερουν οι CRT???

Δεν νομιζω (τουλαχιστον λογω μεγεθους)

Οποτε, μαλλον θα ειναι αρκετο να δωθει η δυνατοτητα στους υποψηφιους αγοραστες να δουν DiLA Vs Sharp 21000.

Αν περεπιπτοντως κανονιστει κατι τετοιο, η δικη μου παρουσια θα ειναι στα πλαισια , "να βρισκομαστε βρε παιδια" :grinning-smiley-043
 

Ntinos P

AVClub Fanatic
26 June 2006
22,938
Καποιος αυτη την στιγμη "βραζει στο ζουμι του".

Υπομονη, υπομονη....
 
22 June 2006
34,787
NEO HRAKLEIO
Για εμας που εχουμε μια ιστορια στη βιντεοπροβολη περιπου 20 χρονια, θα ειναι ΠΟΛΥ σημαντικο να δουμε αν μπορουμε να ξεφυγουμε απο τα φαντασματα του παρελθοντος , οπως οι crt και τι "θρυλικο" μαυρο τους.

Δεν το κρυβω πως στο υπογειο που ισως φτιαξω καποτε, ακομη θα ηθελα εναν 9intso crt , αν ισχυει το παραπανω.
 

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AVClub Fanatic
17 June 2006
10,575
Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: HD D-ILA απο την JVC (HD-1/RS-1) + Mπαμπινος... (CHAT )

Πλακα κανεις Τασο μαλλον.

Εμενα παντως ενα τετοιο συγκριτικο, μου φενεται οτι θα ειναι για να ικανοποιησει, κυριως την περιεργεια, αλλα και να "ανακουφισει" καποιους απο εμας....

:grinning-smiley-043

(θα ελεγα "εσας", αλλα δεν ειναι σικ)



Εγω θα μεινω με την παραπανω αποψη, καθοτι θεωρω οτι την σημερινη εποχη , στους χωρους μας και γενικα κατα την γνωμη μου σε HOME cinema, δεν "χωραει" crt. Σε mini cinema η σε dedicated χωρους (πριβε) ισως, αλλα δεν ειναι κατι που με απασχολει.

Εστω και overall αν θελετε να το δω , πιστευω οτι η εικονα απο τους τωρα ψηφιακους το κοστος τους καθως και η ευκολια εγκαταστασης, ειναι θεματα που εχουν βγαλει οτιδηποτε crtικο εκτος αγορας και ενδιαφεροντος .

Τουλαχιστον δικου μου !


Τωρα για αυτους που βλεπουν φαντασματα, ε , ας τα βλεπουν !

:eek:perator:
 
20 June 2006
186
Εχω την εντυπωση πως δεν καταλαβατε το νοημα μου κυριοι.......
Αν δεχτουμε οτι η εικονα ενος τετοιου crt ειναι οσο πιο κοντα στο ιδανικο γινεται(και ετσι ειναι για την προσωπικη μου αποψη) συγκρινοντας τον με τον D-ILA θα μπορουσαμε να δουμε ποσο κοντα η ποσο μακρυα ειναι τελικα.
Μετα η οποιαδηποτε συγκριση με οτιδηποτε αλλο θα ειναι υποθεση ρουτινας.
 

Ntinos P

AVClub Fanatic
26 June 2006
22,938
Ναι βρε Φωτη, το καταλαβαμε.
Ωστωσο, απο ακαδημαικο και μονον ενδιαφερον (απο περιεργεια, για να ειμαι ειλικρινης) εσυ που εχεις δει και τους 2, πες μου την αποψη σου.

Για τι "αποσταση" μιλαμε????
 
20 June 2006
186
Και αν δεν βαριεστε να διαβαζετε ριξτε μια ματια και σ αυτο ........




Elite Video EV-4600 CRT projector

John J. Gannon, September, 2002


As the Greek mathematician Zeno stated more than 2400 years ago, traveling half the distance toward one's destination, then half of the remaining half, and so on, might mean that one never gets there. The ability to re-create visual reality on a video screen improves with each generation of whichever new technology you choose—LCD, DLP, D-ILA—but they seem to be merely continuing to halve the distance remaining from the still-unrivaled performance of the decades-old cathode-ray-tube (CRT) projector. Longtime readers might think that I sound a bit like a skipping CD, but even this late in 2002, the CRT video-projection technology continues to reign as the king of video fidelity.



Heritage Counts
The rιsumιs of the principals of Elite Video read like a history of projection television. The evolution of three-gun CRT projectors began with an idea from visionary Henry Kloss, who, legend has it, created the best-selling Large Advent loudspeaker in the 1960s simply to fund research on his new-fangled video-projection system. Elite Video's president, Eric Geller, joined Kloss after Kloss left Advent Corporation to start Kloss Video in the 1970s. Later, in the 1980s, Geller and VP Walter Allen worked for AmPro, which marketed projectors for the residential market but focused on military and government installations.

Now that the home-theater market has matured, the creative team behind AmPro is back in a big way as Elite Video, marketing projectors ranging from the top-of-the-line EV-4600 down to entry-level LCD and DLP products. The lineup also includes the EV-3600, with 8-inch CRTs, available in both front- and rear-projection formats. Elite even offers repair service on all of the projectors in this lineage, from the old Advent through the Kloss, Harman, and AmPro, making them an important resource in the industry.

Rumors of an Early Demise
Over the years, whenever I've heard derogatory anecdotes about the reliability of AmPro products, I've dismissed them as pre-Joe Kane. Before that video guru jumped on his soapbox to teach retailers and installers that, unlike direct-view TVs, video projectors simply could not compete with sunlight and room light, the projection-TV industry had consistently tried to exceed the technology's limits. They set the contrast far too high and threw images on the largest screens they could find—recipes for certain instability and, usually, an early violent death. Pushing the projector beyond its limits made all projectors of this vintage unreliable.

Nevertheless, to test the EV-4600's reliability, I ran it for more than 600 hours over six months. Except for a minor problem synchronizing to 720-line progressive high-definition signals—easily corrected after Walter Allen decided that I wasn't out of my mind (at first he couldn't reproduce my problem in his lab)—the EV-4600 was an extremely stable projector, never failing to perform the duties required of it. Indeed, it had less convergence drift than any other CRT projector in my experience—even during the first hour after turn-on, during which most units blur until fully warmed up. The EV-4600 ranked as world-class in stability—only what you'd expect from a unit designed for use 24/7 in government and military installations.

Profile of a Hero
The EV-4600 has a distinctive profile that those familiar with its AmPro ancestor will recognize: a chassis nearly 3 feet square by 1 foot high, its three large lenses protruding from the front. A standard IEC jack for the power cord, an RS-232 computer-control interface, and the input for the hardwired remote control share the back panel with the solitary RGBHV video input. Because the projector has only this type of input, an external video processor or scaler is necessary. For this review, I used both the Faroudja Native Rate and Theater Automation Wow Rock+ scalers.

The infrared remote-control option costs $600, and I can't imagine anyone buying an EV-4600 without it—unless they plan to use one of the touchscreen automation systems that communicate with the RS-232 computer protocol. The projector lacks an automatic video signal-sensing circuit for turn-on, so automation in a well-engineered home theater will absolutely require the IR remote-control option.

Shine, Baby, Shine
I've found that learning how to set up a CRT projector is as simple as identifying the required controls and discovering the engineering team's quirks. The EV-4600 is one of the easiest CRTs to install and calibrate. Elite Video includes a very thorough, easy-to-follow instruction manual, although it could stand to be updated—there were a number of references to professional multiple computer installations that simply don't apply to the home-theater market. The manual even devotes five full pages to choosing a screen, and, frighteningly, includes mention of curved screens—something I've not seen since my early-1980s days of selling the Kloss projection system at retail. Avoid curved screens—they wreak havoc on the sound quality of center-channel speakers. [They're still available, though not widely used in home theaters for this and other reasons.—TJN]

Elite's approach to geometry and convergence differs slightly from those of other firms. While the newest Sony and Barco designs have point-convergence systems, in which every intersection of a test grid can be addressed to ensure that the red and blue exactly match the green, Elite Video divides the screen into zones—the installer chooses the section to be adjusted with one set of buttons on the remote, then makes the adjustment with a set of cursor buttons. This is very easy to learn, and quite a good feature for first-time installers. While I think the point-convergence system permits more precise calibration, the required circuitry and memory are more expensive, and the initial installation can be tedious.

I know some readers think some of us are crazy to shine images from projectors costing $30-$60k onto a six-foot-wide screen. The idea came from Joe Kane, and until we tried it, I, too, thought he was crazy. But on this relatively tiny piece of vinyl real estate a video image looks stunning. I also tried the EV-4600 on a 7' 3"-wide, 1.3-gain Stewart Studiotek 130 screen, and found it less involving, less punchy—daytime scenes lost a bit of the sense of being there. Every manufacturer will tell you that their projector will shine on some ridiculously large screen, but I'd ignore recommendations of anything wider than 8 feet. If you have the guts to actually try a 6-foot-wide screen in a proper seating arrangement, you'll witness magic.

My seating distance from this screen was roughly twice the screen height, which is fine as long as the video processor or hi-def source has enough lines of information to fill the screen. Too few lines, and the black spaces between the scan lines become visible and distracting. I found that the EV-4600 ran efficiently with 720 horizontal scan lines on the 6-foot screen—perfect for the 720p Faroudja Native Rate video processor, and happily one of the pre-set choices in Theater Automation Wow's Rock+ processor (review in the works).


Article Continues: Page 2
 
20 June 2006
186
Watching
The EV-4600's greatest strengths were at the extremes of light—peak white and deep black. It produced nearly 12 foot-Lamberts of peak white on the 6-foot-wide screen while holding black more accurately than most projectors. This created an extremely wide range of light dynamics, rendering outdoor scenes—especially high-definition sports—with extraordinary realism. I can't emphasize more strongly the need for black in a video image: improved shadow detail yields a more 3-dimensional picture.

In comparison, a carefully set-up 7-inch CRT projector on a screen of the same size usually can't shine brighter than 9fL, and, since they usually don't hold blacks as well, the picture, by comparison, is flat and uninvolving. I'm conservative with my peak white (or contrast) adjustments. Detail and depth of field suffer when the beam is driven into blooming, and I have found that those parameters are more important than peak white for a realistic picture—even though the market-research folks will tell you that "brightness sells." We all see our surroundings in a composite of detail, color, and depth of field, in addition to brightness; to pursue only one of these parameters is to ignore others, which makes the image less convincing.

Through the Faroudja Native Rate scaler, the EV-4600's DVD images were head and shoulders above those of the 7-inch CRTs with which I'm familiar. Details in hair and skin pores were much more pronounced through the Elite, and the clarity of focus extended deep into the image, drawing me into the performance. The EV-4600 yielded an involving image that I found difficult to turn off.

Comparisons
Installer Nicholas Grieco was able to run the Madrigal MP-9 (reviewed by TJN in the January 2002 Guide) up to 960p on a 7-foot-wide screen, leading me to believe that the MP-9 has better beam-spot focus than the Elite EV-4600—even though both have electromagnetic and dynamic focus. This active focus, as opposed to the cheaper electrostatic focus, allows the beam spot to be more fully controlled over the entire face of the tube. Without viewing the two projectors side by side, it's impossible to make a definitive claim, but at nearly twice the price, I'd expect the Madrigal would offer benefits in its performance.

While the EV-4600 was in my studio, I also had the now-discontinued Dwin HD-700 7-inch CRT projector, along with a collection of 1280x720 DLP units. One night, I had a few enthusiast friends over to view the Dwin vs. the SharpVision XV-Z9000U, Runco VX-1000c, and Marantz VP-12S1 DLPs. Everyone was wowed by the clarity and full-screen brightness of the DLPs, but the consensus was that the Dwin's 7-inch CRTs created a more relaxing and involving image. I already knew the value of a CRT projector's ability to get closer to true black when the source material required, and had easily demonstrated the Dwin's black-level superiority over the fixed-pixel units.

But I had no intention of showing my friends the EV-4600, for fear of spoiling them. After a few hours of switching back and forth, however, I couldn't resist, and popped the lens caps off the idling Elite. The difference was startling. The EV-4600 went another order of magnitude deeper into the blacks than the admittedly far less expensive Dwin, resolving a level of shadow detail the lesser CRT simply couldn't match. The Elite's superior resolution from its finer beam spot also allowed textures and fine detail to be readily seen, yielding an image that had more of the "Wow!" factor craved by high-end videophiles.

Nor did the Elite's black perfection change with picture level, even with severe shifts in overall scene illumination, rendering tires and referees' stripes the same whether they were in bright sunlight or in shadow. This alone brought a level of realism that none of the other projectors could display. So when we complain in the Guide that the new fixed-pixel units can't "do black," understand that this is no minor criticism. When blacks are rendered correctly, all of the darker colors, shadows, and even the depth of field improve greatly—all of which aid the re-creation of a realistic image. The image has varying degrees of light reflecting off of it, and as long as the object is 3-dimensional, this reflected light gradually dims to shadows. So improved black and near-black can help render 3-dimensional objects more thoroughly.

One thing I've noticed, with every DLP unit I've critically evaluated, is the eye fatigue or strain that accompanies prolonged viewing. It seems that my eyes take longer to adapt to changes in light after one of these sessions—seeing into shadows is harder. It's even worse if I try to go to sleep right away—when I close my eyes, I see a well-defined rectangle. I've spent a lot of time in front of tube projectors, and I've never experienced anything like this following a session with a CRT—another selling point for the old technology.

Verdict
Solid-state projectors improve with each new generation, but they're still not as accurate or as involving as the tried-and-true CRT designs, however clumsy and high-maintenance. The Elite Video EV-4600 is big and heavy, and was a bit intimidating as it rested on a very strong table in the middle of my studio. It eventually reminded me of Shrek—huge and ugly, but reliable and extremely entertaining. After living with this impressive video projector for half a year, I recognized that this Shrek is a prince—though it may not reign as king, it has royal blood.

With performance approaching that of the very best in the projection business for at least $10,000 less, the rugged EV-4600 is a very good value. It might seem expensive to fans of DLPs and 7-inch CRTs, but if you want to get the most from high-definition broadcasts as well as witness the essence of liveness that 9-inch CRTs yield, then the EV-4600 is a very good choice. For those looking for an even better value, Elite Video mentions on their website that "B"-stock units with one-year warranties are available for less money.

Recommended.
 
20 June 2006
186
Specifications

EV-4600 CRT projector with 9" tubes, liquid-coupled Corning Precision HD-10 lenses, electromagnetic focus
Resolution: 2500x2000 pixels
Light output: 270 ANSI lumens
RGB bandwidth: <100MHz
Retrace time: 400mS (vertical)
Inputs: RS-232, RGBHV, (optional second RGB input with composite sync only)
Power consumption: 800W
Dimensions: 32" x 12.6" x 39" (WxHxD}
Weight: 175 lbs
Price: $32,995 ($595 for infrared remote, $650 for ceiling-mount bracket)

Manufacturer
Elite Video, Inc.
One Presidential Way, Suite 104A
Woburn, MA 01801-1071
 

Babis K.

Super Moderator
Staff member
17 June 2006
28,684
Αθήνα
Απάντηση: Re: HD D-ILA απο την JVC (HD-1/RS-1) + Mπαμπινος... (CHAT )

Και ετσι για να ξερουμε για τι πραγμα συζηταμε παρτε μια αποψη........


Το θυμάμαι αυτό... Τρομερό εργαλείο.
Τι μου θύμησες τώρα...
Με δύο τέτοια (λίγο μικρότερα) το USS Missouri βομβάρδιζε την Iwo Jima. :flipout: :flipout:
 

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30 July 2006
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Re: Απάντηση: Re: HD D-ILA απο την JVC (HD-1/RS-1) + Mπαμπινος... (CHAT )

Το θυμάμαι αυτό... Τρομερό εργαλείο.
Τι μου θύμησες τώρα...
Με δύο τέτοια (λίγο μικρότερα) το USS Missouri βομβάρδιζε την Iwo Jima. :flipout: :flipout:

Aπορώ πώς δεν τους τύφλωσε όλους στην Iwo Jima, με ολόκληρα 270 ANSI Lumens!!
Kαι το συγκριτικό λέει πως πλησιάζουν οι ψηφιακοί αλλά δεν είναι CRT. Το 2002!
Δλδ τώρα ο Ντίλα που είναι 10 φορές καλύτερος από τον καλύτερο ψηφιακό 5 χρόνια πριν, ακόμα δεν έφτασε τους CRT??