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Περί μικρών και μεγάλων...
- Thread starter Νανόπουλος Γιάννης
- Start date
Ιερέας
New member
- 20 June 2006
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Re: Απάντηση: ΠΕΡΙ ΜΙΚΡΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΜΕΓΑΛΩΝ...
Τρέξε μια βόλτα στο manual να δούμε για που θα πάει το σαπάκι.
Τρέξε μια βόλτα στο manual να δούμε για που θα πάει το σαπάκι.
Last edited:
Απάντηση: ΠΕΡΙ ΜΙΚΡΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΜΕΓΑΛΩΝ...
Σκεψου ποσοι απο εμας εχουν μεγαλα ηχεια? Λιγοι.
Ποσοι εχουν αναλογους τελικους για μεγαλα ηχεια ? Λιγοι.
Ποσοι εχουν χωρο για 5 μεγαλα ηχεια ? Πολυ λιγοι.
Ποσοι εχουν μικρα ηχεια ?. Οι περισοτεροι
Ποσοι δεν εχουν τελικο? Παλι οι περισοτεροι.
Τωρα ξερεις που απευθυνεται , στη πλειοψηφια, και επιπλεον το dolby studios
audyssey lab, dts .Ολοι το ιδιο προτεινουν μικρα ηχεια.-
Σκεψου ποσοι απο εμας εχουν μεγαλα ηχεια? Λιγοι.
Ποσοι εχουν αναλογους τελικους για μεγαλα ηχεια ? Λιγοι.
Ποσοι εχουν χωρο για 5 μεγαλα ηχεια ? Πολυ λιγοι.
Ποσοι εχουν μικρα ηχεια ?. Οι περισοτεροι
Ποσοι δεν εχουν τελικο? Παλι οι περισοτεροι.
Τωρα ξερεις που απευθυνεται , στη πλειοψηφια, και επιπλεον το dolby studios
audyssey lab, dts .Ολοι το ιδιο προτεινουν μικρα ηχεια.-
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New member
- 20 June 2006
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Re: Απάντηση: ΠΕΡΙ ΜΙΚΡΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΜΕΓΑΛΩΝ...
Μικρά ηχεία = ηχεία βιβλιοθήκης
Μεγάλα = ηχεία δαπέδου
Μεγάλα main μικρά οι μεσαία κεντρικά και περιφερειακά μεγάλο μπουρδούκλωμα. Φάσεις αποκοπές..
Για μεγάλα μπροστινά. όλα large και τα μυαλά στα κάγκελα.
Μικρά ηχεία = ηχεία βιβλιοθήκης
Μεγάλα = ηχεία δαπέδου
Μεγάλα main μικρά οι μεσαία κεντρικά και περιφερειακά μεγάλο μπουρδούκλωμα. Φάσεις αποκοπές..
Για μεγάλα μπροστινά. όλα large και τα μυαλά στα κάγκελα.
Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: ΠΕΡΙ ΜΙΚΡΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΜΕΓΑΛΩΝ...
Ας το εκανε τοτε 5,0 και οποιος μπορει εχει ηχεια με 15ιντσα γουφερ και παραμασχαλα ενα classe omega να γεμιζει ρευμα τους κωνους των ηχειων του σε ενα αναλογο χωρο,ε τοτε ΜΠΡΑΒΟ του εμεις οι αλλοι (οι πολλοι ) απλα δεν μπορουμε.Κια οι κατασκευαστες απλα θελουν να πουλησουν
Ας το εκανε τοτε 5,0 και οποιος μπορει εχει ηχεια με 15ιντσα γουφερ και παραμασχαλα ενα classe omega να γεμιζει ρευμα τους κωνους των ηχειων του σε ενα αναλογο χωρο,ε τοτε ΜΠΡΑΒΟ του εμεις οι αλλοι (οι πολλοι ) απλα δεν μπορουμε.Κια οι κατασκευαστες απλα θελουν να πουλησουν
Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: ΠΕΡΙ ΜΙΚΡΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΜΕΓΑΛΩΝ...
και τα μεγαλα θα παιζουν οτι μπορουν (ποιο μεγαλο ειναι γρηγορο και δυνατο σαν ενα 15ιντσο ή 18ιντσο σαμπ) αρα απο τα μικρα θα εχεις ματσαρισμενο ηχο και τα αλλα θα κανουν οτι μπορουν.
Πατερ δεν μας τα λες καλα
και τα μεγαλα θα παιζουν οτι μπορουν (ποιο μεγαλο ειναι γρηγορο και δυνατο σαν ενα 15ιντσο ή 18ιντσο σαμπ) αρα απο τα μικρα θα εχεις ματσαρισμενο ηχο και τα αλλα θα κανουν οτι μπορουν.
Πατερ δεν μας τα λες καλα
Budda
Supreme Member
Re: Απάντηση: ΠΕΡΙ ΜΙΚΡΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΜΕΓΑΛΩΝ...
παρτο απο την αρχη να το καταλαβεις
Βεβαια ο κεθενας ακουει οπως του αρεσει
Υπαρχουν και ειδικοι ομως που ασχολουνται και το ψαχνουν και το μετρανε με ειδικα "εργαλεια" και μας λενε πως το ακουσαν καλυτερα .λεω λοιπον να ακολουθησω αυτα που προτεινουν αυτοι απο το να κανω αυτο που εσυ προτεινεις με μετρο το αυτι σου (no offence)
Τωρα αν δεν εχεις και πιστευεις οτι δεν χρειαζεται το σαμπ ,χωστα ολα μεγαλα και οτι παρεις:ernaehrung004:
παρτο απο την αρχη να το καταλαβεις
Βεβαια ο κεθενας ακουει οπως του αρεσει
Υπαρχουν και ειδικοι ομως που ασχολουνται και το ψαχνουν και το μετρανε με ειδικα "εργαλεια" και μας λενε πως το ακουσαν καλυτερα .λεω λοιπον να ακολουθησω αυτα που προτεινουν αυτοι απο το να κανω αυτο που εσυ προτεινεις με μετρο το αυτι σου (no offence)
Τωρα αν δεν εχεις και πιστευεις οτι δεν χρειαζεται το σαμπ ,χωστα ολα μεγαλα και οτι παρεις:ernaehrung004:
Ιερέας
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- 20 June 2006
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Re: Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: ΠΕΡΙ ΜΙΚΡΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΜΕΓΑΛΩΝ...
Τέκνο μου πάντα υπάρχει ο καιρός να μετανοήσεις.
Τέκνο μου πάντα υπάρχει ο καιρός να μετανοήσεις.
Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: ΠΕΡΙ ΜΙΚΡΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΜΕΓΑΛΩΝ...
Καλύτερα είναι ,να είμαστε περισσότερο ουσιαστικοί στον λόγο μας.....
Καλύτερα είναι ,να είμαστε περισσότερο ουσιαστικοί στον λόγο μας.....
Απάντηση: ΠΕΡΙ ΜΙΚΡΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΜΕΓΑΛΩΝ...
σωστα ας δουμε τι λεει ο κρις κυριακακης
Do you have a subwoofer in your system? Great. Then your speakers are small. Before you get all upset, read on. This is one of those audio myths whose time has come to be busted. To understand why, we need to talk about Bass Management.
In the early days of home theater it was thought that in order to reproduce the full movie surround experience at home it was necessary to place 5 large loudspeakers in the room. The reason for the size was the woofers. To play at theatrical reference levels and reproduce the deepest bass available in the content requires each speaker to have 12” or larger woofers. Let’s just say that this theory didn’t get very far in the real world.
A better and more practical approach came after studying human perception. The mechanisms that we use to determine the direction of arrival of sound depend on the frequency. At high frequencies the wavelength of sound is small and so sound coming from the side is shadowed by our head. That creates a level difference between the sound reaching the ear closest to the source and the ear on the other side. Our brain analyzes these level differences and produces an estimate of where the sound is coming from. But at lower frequencies, the wavelength of sound gets longer and our head is not large enough to produce a level difference at the two ears. Instead, we analyze the difference in time of arrival of sound at the two ears. Sound arrives first at the closest ear and we use that to determine the direction. But even that ability fails us below about 80 Hz. The wavelengths get very large and it was found in listening tests that 80 Hz is the frequency below which most people can not localize the direction of sound.
Taking advantage of this apparent “deficiency” in our hearing was what made home theater practical for millions of homes. Five satellite speakers of reasonable size could now be used because they no longer required large woofers. A subwoofer (or two) can reproduce the lower octaves and it can be placed out of sight since its content is not directional.
But there is also a practical advantage: directing the bass to a dedicated subwoofer channel with its own amplifier greatly improves the headroom in the main channels. The idea behind this was proposed in a Society of Motion Picture Engineers (SMPTE) meeting in 1987. The participants could not agree on the minimum number of channels required for surround sound on film. Various numbers were being shouted out until a voice was heard from the back: “We need 5.1”. Everyone’s head turned around to look at Tom Holman. He proceeded to explain what he meant: Take the low frequency content from all 5 channels and redirect it away from the satellite speakers to the subwoofer. If we do the math, then the content below 80 Hz is 0.004 of the audible 20,000 Hz bandwidth. But 5.004 didn’t sound as catchy so Tom rounded up to 5.1. By the way, don’t make the amateur mistake of calling it 5 dot 1. It is a decimal: 5 point 1.
Fast forward to the early 90s when the first DSP powered home theater receivers started to appear. Along with progress came complexity. Some industry forces believed that Bass Management should be an option that could be turned on and off by the consumer. That’s not necessarily a bad idea, but to make an informed decision requires much more knowledge about the system than what was available to the typical consumer. So, the Large and Small rule of thumb was established. The idea was to look at the size of your speakers and decide whether their woofers were “large enough” to reproduce the lowest octaves at the required levels. It was a noble thought, but looking at it 15 years later I believe that it has led to nothing but massive confusion. The poor consumer was led to believe that Large is somehow a good thing and was then left wondering why there was nothing coming out of their subwoofer.
Redirecting the bass to the subwoofer relieves the receiver amplifiers from having to work on reproducing the low frequencies and this greatly improves the headroom. If you happen to be using Audyssey MultEQ for room correction, you will achieve much better low frequency performance because the MultEQ subwoofer filters have 8x higher resolution than the filters in the other channels.
Here is a better rule: All speakers are Small. In today’s complicated AVR lingo that just means: If you have a subwoofer you should always turn bass management on. Always. Even if your receiver clings to the past and automatically sets your speakers to Large
σωστα ας δουμε τι λεει ο κρις κυριακακης
Do you have a subwoofer in your system? Great. Then your speakers are small. Before you get all upset, read on. This is one of those audio myths whose time has come to be busted. To understand why, we need to talk about Bass Management.
In the early days of home theater it was thought that in order to reproduce the full movie surround experience at home it was necessary to place 5 large loudspeakers in the room. The reason for the size was the woofers. To play at theatrical reference levels and reproduce the deepest bass available in the content requires each speaker to have 12” or larger woofers. Let’s just say that this theory didn’t get very far in the real world.
A better and more practical approach came after studying human perception. The mechanisms that we use to determine the direction of arrival of sound depend on the frequency. At high frequencies the wavelength of sound is small and so sound coming from the side is shadowed by our head. That creates a level difference between the sound reaching the ear closest to the source and the ear on the other side. Our brain analyzes these level differences and produces an estimate of where the sound is coming from. But at lower frequencies, the wavelength of sound gets longer and our head is not large enough to produce a level difference at the two ears. Instead, we analyze the difference in time of arrival of sound at the two ears. Sound arrives first at the closest ear and we use that to determine the direction. But even that ability fails us below about 80 Hz. The wavelengths get very large and it was found in listening tests that 80 Hz is the frequency below which most people can not localize the direction of sound.
Taking advantage of this apparent “deficiency” in our hearing was what made home theater practical for millions of homes. Five satellite speakers of reasonable size could now be used because they no longer required large woofers. A subwoofer (or two) can reproduce the lower octaves and it can be placed out of sight since its content is not directional.
But there is also a practical advantage: directing the bass to a dedicated subwoofer channel with its own amplifier greatly improves the headroom in the main channels. The idea behind this was proposed in a Society of Motion Picture Engineers (SMPTE) meeting in 1987. The participants could not agree on the minimum number of channels required for surround sound on film. Various numbers were being shouted out until a voice was heard from the back: “We need 5.1”. Everyone’s head turned around to look at Tom Holman. He proceeded to explain what he meant: Take the low frequency content from all 5 channels and redirect it away from the satellite speakers to the subwoofer. If we do the math, then the content below 80 Hz is 0.004 of the audible 20,000 Hz bandwidth. But 5.004 didn’t sound as catchy so Tom rounded up to 5.1. By the way, don’t make the amateur mistake of calling it 5 dot 1. It is a decimal: 5 point 1.
Fast forward to the early 90s when the first DSP powered home theater receivers started to appear. Along with progress came complexity. Some industry forces believed that Bass Management should be an option that could be turned on and off by the consumer. That’s not necessarily a bad idea, but to make an informed decision requires much more knowledge about the system than what was available to the typical consumer. So, the Large and Small rule of thumb was established. The idea was to look at the size of your speakers and decide whether their woofers were “large enough” to reproduce the lowest octaves at the required levels. It was a noble thought, but looking at it 15 years later I believe that it has led to nothing but massive confusion. The poor consumer was led to believe that Large is somehow a good thing and was then left wondering why there was nothing coming out of their subwoofer.
Redirecting the bass to the subwoofer relieves the receiver amplifiers from having to work on reproducing the low frequencies and this greatly improves the headroom. If you happen to be using Audyssey MultEQ for room correction, you will achieve much better low frequency performance because the MultEQ subwoofer filters have 8x higher resolution than the filters in the other channels.
Here is a better rule: All speakers are Small. In today’s complicated AVR lingo that just means: If you have a subwoofer you should always turn bass management on. Always. Even if your receiver clings to the past and automatically sets your speakers to Large
Απάντηση: ΠΕΡΙ ΜΙΚΡΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΜΕΓΑΛΩΝ...
και εδω σχολια και απαντησεις
63 Responses to “Small vs. Large”
1. Tom Damico Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 6:40 am
If the argument is that all speakers are small if you have a subwoofer. Then why does your software set my speakers to large when it knows that I have a subwoofer?
2. Chris Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 6:47 am
Hi Tom,
The reason for that is that Audyssey is not “allowed” to make that determination. The decision to call a speaker Small or Large is made by each manufacturer. Until recently most used 80 Hz as the criterion to make that decision. So, for example, a speaker that was found to have a –3 dB roll off at 70 Hz would be called Large by the AVR maker. Bass management would be turned off for that speaker resulting in no bass being sent to the subwoofer.
We managed to convince most manufacturers that this was a very bad idea. As a result, most now use 40 Hz as the decision point. An improvement, but not the ultimate solution.
3. Tom Damico Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 7:22 am
Thanks. A very reasonible explanation. BTW are your familiar with the NAD Audyssey curve that NAD provides? What does that curve do differently than plain Audyssey.
4. Chris Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 7:51 am
The core MultEQ room correction algorithm in the NAD products is exactly the same as all other licensee products. Audyssey provides two target sound curves (Audyssey Flat and Audyssey Reference). NAD has an additional target sound curve that is very similar to the Audyssey Reference curve with a slightly elevated bass region and a slightly rolled off high frequency region.
5. Rao Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
Very good article.
I wish you guys also can come with a software similar to MultEQ that can be used for “Boss” Management
6. Greg Lee Says:
May 30th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
I just spent some time using my receiver’s setup function to flip my side surrounds back and forth from the “large” to the “small” settings, then flipping my fronts back and forth from “large” to “small”, and listening. The “large” setting for both sounds best. So for this reason and one other, I’m not convinced that “small” is always best. The other reason is that the article gives no real evidence — it’s just a series of unsupported assertions and references. The improved headroom argument is merely theoretical, and even at that would only make a difference in a system where the headroom is needed to improve the sound.
–Greg
7. Chris Says:
May 30th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
Hi Greg,
The headroom improvement is not theoretical. Using the fixed amplifier power over a narrower frequency range gives an improvement in headroom. That is a rather basic principle.
I would be curious to know what content you are using for evaluation of your surrounds and how your speaker levels are calibrated. I am wondering whether a different reason might be causing you to prefer Large: if there is too much bass in the surround signal then sending that to the sub may make the mix sound boomy. When you set them to Large and that bass is no longer being reproduced you may prefer that balance. This can happen, for example, if your subwoofer level is not set to reference relative to the satellite channels. Sending the bass content from the surrounds to it can offset the reference balance.
8. Greg Lee Says:
May 30th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
I intended to be questioning whether an improvement in headroom necessarily improves the sound (not whether there is an improvement in headroom).
Answering your questions: Just now I was playing the XM Real Jazz channel — don’t recall just what was on. (I think I have some sense of how plucked bass is supposed to sound, so that’s why I tend to listen to jazz when I’m evaluating bass.)
I used Pioneer’s MCACC to set the vsx-817 receiver’s levels and (5 band) equalization. I didn’t change that (though I have at times in the past hotted up the sub level).
I’m not questioning your diagnosis of why my system isn’t following your rule (if in fact it isn’t). I’m just reporting, and also asking for some evidence that speakers should always be set to “small”.
–Greg
9. Chris Says:
May 30th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
Hi Greg,
It’s very hard to comment on content that is so highly compressed and not in surround to begin with. Who knows what the upmixing algorithm you are using is doing to the surround signals…
I would suggest using film multichannel content that is mixed to well established and adhered to standards before making your final decision.
It is well established in the literature that an improvement in amplifier headroom improves sound quality. There are papers that you can find in the Audio Engineering Society archives that date back many decades. The biggest benefit comes in transient peaks that require large headroom reserves to be reproduced correctly. See for example: P. W. Mitchell, “A Musically Appropriate Dynamic Headroom Test for Power Amplifiers”, AES Convention, paper 2504, (1987).
But, this may also be a case of preference vs. reference. You may be interested in reading my thoughts on that here: http://www.audyssey.com/blog/category/blog/2009/05/reference-vs-preference/
10. Roger Dressler Says:
June 8th, 2009 at 10:38 am
Just a couple of points of clarification, if I may.
In the early days of home theater, no one was ever expected to use 5 full range speakers. The surround channels in theatrical soundtracks did not (and still do not) carry deep bass, so no need for large surrounds in theaters or in homes. Later (1987), when Pro Logic was introduced, and the center speaker joined the party, it could also use a small speaker, as there was a form of bass management built in. The consumer could choose Large, Small, or None (phantom C). In Small, the bass was removed from C and split into L/R. Subwoofers were not too popular yet in homes.
The idea for directing the bass to a dedicated subwoofer channel with its own amplifier to improve headroom in the main channels was introduced 10 years earlier than you cite—-Star Wars, 1977, as detailed in Tom’s book “Surround Sound, Up and Running.”
–Roger
11. JBH Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 12:43 am
One possible route to “bass management” that went unexplored in this post but that is available in most (if not perhaps all) Audyssey-equipped receivers and preamps is the use of “LFE+Main” or “DoubleBass” mode. In such modes, as I understand them, the mains run full-range AND the subwoofers - that is plural for a reason! - are lowpassed in at a specified frequency. So in the lower octaves, both mains and subwoofers are receiving signal.
With that in mind, what about a special (dare I write, ideal) case: LCR mains that are genuinely capable of reaching reasonably deep (<40Hz) with enough cone area and box volume to do so efficiently. Additionally, let’s stipulate that the mains/amp system allows functionally limitless headroom above the mains’ lower cutoff when run full range.
In such a case, would you recommend still setting the mains to “small” at some frequency, or would you recommend using the LFE+Main mode in attempts to better randomize the effects of room modes?
12. Chris Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 8:16 am
LFE+Main or Double Bass is an option that was specifically created by AVR makers to appease customers who were personally “offended” when their speakers were designated Small. With this option, the bass from the supposed Large speakers is not lost and is redirected to the subwoofer. The problem is that in the overlap frequency region between the sub and the speaker the bass is doubled and therefore not correct. Having a sub is only beneficial if the content between it and the satellite speakers is properly spliced so the blend doesn’t cause issues. Just playing the same content from both doesn’t do that.
Yes, there is a benefit in distributing the bass from multiple sources. But the only way to do that correctly is with more than one subwoofer.
13. Jaco Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 11:17 am
My main speakers are full range actives that go down to 15Hz at reference levels, so they’re set to large. Needless to say, I don’t have a separate sub connected to the LFE channel of my Denon AVR-3808. You stated that “the MultEQ subwoofer filters have 8x higher resolution than the filters in the other channels.” What happens to those filters in my setup? Do they just sit idle, or are they re-assigned to help manage the bass spectrum of my full range main speakers?
14. Chris Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 10:31 pm
The filters in the subwoofer channel are designed to only operate in that channel and so they will remain unused if there is no subwoofer in the system.
15. Greg Lee Says:
June 14th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
In comment on what JBH says about the DoubleBass mode, I think perhaps there is some resurgence of interest in using this due to some remarks of Geddes to the effect that the more different sources of bass you have, the better. But of course you do need to control the booms from having several bass sources at some frequencies. I’ve had some success using DoubleBass in the past and dialing down the subwoofer’s crossover knob to control the duplication region.
16. Noel Weavers Says:
June 15th, 2009 at 5:14 am
Hi Chris
I totally agree with your assertion that if you use a sub your speakers should be set as small, so I hope my question is not too off topic for you to answer.
My question relates to the new sub equaliser. I am currently using an Audyssey Sound Equalizer, I run 2 subs and am wondering if the sub equalizer is a better option for dealing with equalizing and blending two subs or is it the same as what I already have with the Audyssey Sound Equalizer.
17. Chris Says:
June 15th, 2009 at 8:21 am
Hi Noel,
The Sub Equalizer performs more advanced processing for two subs. It first finds the delay and levels for each sub individually and then applies that correction. Then it measures the two time and level aligned subs as “one”. This gives much better low frequency correction when you have two subs.
18. Toby Says:
June 17th, 2009 at 6:30 pm
Hi Chris,
So if I have two subwoofers connected to independent channels on the Audyssey Sound Equalizer I will not get as good a result as the Sub equalizer? If that is true am I to daisy chain a Sub equalizer to my Audyssey Sound Equalizer? Or can I get my Sound Equalizer upgraded?
19. Chris Says:
June 17th, 2009 at 10:45 pm
Hi Toby,
Yes, the additional processing in the Sub Equalizer will do a better job of blending two subs. You can feed the sub output of a Sound EQ to the Sub EQ, but you are better off taking the subwoofer signal from the pre-pro and going directly to the Sub EQ. We don’t currently have any plans announced to upgrade the Sound Equalizer, but will keep you posted if that changes.
20. Alf Says:
June 22nd, 2009 at 3:17 am
Dear Chris,
I’ve been reading your posts from AVS and here as well and am truly impressed.
I use an Onkyo TX SR 805 with a Bose Accoustimass 10 system (I know they may not be every one’s favorite). Bose recommends setting all speakers as “Full Band”. Audyssey sets them at “Full Band” as well. Should I stick to this configuration or swtich to say 80hz crossover for my satellites. As you would know bass for all channels is managed by the bass module in Bose and the LFE channel is output from another driver in the same enclosure.
After running the Auddysey setup, I find that the bass is “very low” from the 5 channels (sub seems ok). This is not preferential bass I am talking about, but rather you feel the loss of low frequency detail especially while playing music.
Sorry for the long post, but you would seem to be the only person who could answer.
21. Chris Says:
June 23rd, 2009 at 5:11 am
Hi Alf,
If you feed your surround channels to the bass module then they will be automatically found to be Full Range because the receiver doesn’t know there is a subwoofer connected.
The only way to set a crossover in the receiver for your satellites is to allow the receiver to do the bass management and feed the bass module from the Sub Out connector on the back of the AVR.
The problem is that the satellites are quite small and start to roll off around 150-200 Hz so to blend them with the bass module would require you to manually set the crossovers to 150 Hz or so.
22. Ralph Says:
June 26th, 2009 at 9:50 pm
Hi Chris, let me see if I understand you what you are saying is that in a general situation if you have a subwoofer then all of your speaker should be set to small, so that the proper bass would be heard correctly?
What is the sense of having large speakers then? thought that it would be for better sound such as the highs and the lows in the movie or CD.
Thanks
23. Chris Says:
June 27th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
Hi Ralph,
Let’s go back to the definition of Small and Large speakers. These are poorly chosen names that actually mean:
Large: Turn off bass management and don’t send low frequency content from this speaker to the subwoofer.
Small: Turn on bass management and send low frequency content below the crossover frequency to the subwoofer.
So, yes, I am advocating that if you have a subwoofer then bass management should always be on. The benefits in amplifier headroom improvement and higher resolution low frequency room correction are significant.
The physical size of speakers does not really guarantee anything about sound quality. It depends on their design and, more importantly, on the effects of the room they are placed in.
24. biomed_eng_2000 Says:
July 5th, 2009 at 8:59 am
Yeah, they should change the names.
Small => Bass Managed
Large => Bass Mismanaged
25. Jon Austenaa Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 4:57 pm
1. My Denon 2809 has a “LFE+Main” setting. Is this a nasty option that breaks the Audyssey EQ so the listener get too much bass, or is it a good thing for people with small speakers and large room?
2. Shouldnt the Audyssey setup give a warning if subwoofer trim is at lowest, and ask you to turn down the volume on the sub and run a new test? I noticed this only after reading long Audyssey faq and found i had to turn sub down to only 20% volume to get above the -12dB trim.
26. Chris Says:
July 12th, 2009 at 11:15 am
Hi Jon,
1. LFE+Main is not recommended. It can end up doubling the bass in the overlap frequency range between the sub and the speakers.
2. This has been implemented in the new models that are coming out this year.
27. Jeff Says:
July 13th, 2009 at 8:53 am
Chris, great post. Few questions.
1. What are the “trim limits” on db correction for the sub channel? I’m asking because Audyssey gave my subs (built into my JBL S412PII speakers) a “+12db” correction. I’m wondering if that’s ok, or whether I should increase the gain (had it set to exctly middle) and re-run Audyssey? FWIW, things sound just fine. Since I’m using a new Denon AVR-890, I wasn’t sure if this has the max/min trim level warning that you reference the “new models taht are coming out this year” will have. Also, my subs don’t have any sort of filter or other adjustments…just the one main knob
2. With having these two subs, the way I’m currently running these is to run the sub cable from each speaker into a “Y” splitter and then connecting the Y into the sub input in the back of the receiver (as per page 5 of the manual in the link above). This is fine to do, correct? I have no idea what else I might need to do other than this, but I thought I should at least check.
3. Given these speakers that I am using, this doesn’t end up as some exception to the rule of this Large vs Small post, since the subs are really part of the front speakers themselves, right?
4. I have yet to switch the front speaker setting to Small in Audyssey (just reat this article!). Can I simply go into the manual setup and change them, and I’m good? No need to re-run any setup then? This will not cancel or ruin the Audyssey Dynamic EQ that is currently set?
Thanks for the great info!
28. Chris Says:
July 14th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
Hi Jeff,
Every manufacturer decides what trim limits to use based on their gain structure. ±12 dB is typical, but some use ±15 dB. In general, you want to avoid having a sub trim found near the limit because it would mean that the volume on the back of the sub is turned up too high or too low.
Two subs are best corrected when MultEQ can measure the time delay and level for each one individually and then create a filter for the combination. But, most AVR products available do not allow subs to be handled individually this way. A y splitter is fine, but try to place the subs so that they are at the same distance from the main listening position.
It doesn’t matter if the subs are built in to the speaker cabinets. If they provide you with a line-level input then you should use it and set the other speakers to Small so that the bass management system can redirect the bass to the subs.
Yes, you can (and should) change to Small after MultEQ is finished and stored. Doing it before will have no effect as it will be reset by the AVR.
29. Brandon Says:
July 17th, 2009 at 9:22 am
If you have your speakers set to small and the crossover is set to 80hz to the sub, wouldn’t you want to increase the range to sub to like 150-300?
my fronts and rears are the same speaker with a 1″ tweeter and 4″ mid
Would this give you more bass or muddier bass?
30. Chris Says:
July 17th, 2009 at 9:32 am
Hi Brandon,
The crossover is actually two filters: a highpass filter applied to the satellite and a lowpass applied to the subwoofer. So, when you say “my crossover is at 80 Hz” that means that frequencies above that are going to the satellite and below that to the subwoofer. Using a different frequency for the highpass and lowpass filters is not a good idea because it can lead to blending problems.
31. Brandon Says:
July 17th, 2009 at 10:52 am
I keep thinking about a 3-way system where you may have the sub at 500hz the mid at 2500-3000hz and everything else for the tweeter.
Is this different than a standard 3-way or do the same rules apply. My speakers are just 2-way would you get better results with a 3-way?
When you say you may get blending problems would that mean to much bass is going to the sub?
32. Chris Says:
July 17th, 2009 at 11:28 am
The woofer in a 3-way system is not the same as the subwoofer in a bass managed system. The discussion here is about bass managing speakers (2-way or 3-way) with a separate subwoofer. There are important benefits in doing that, particularly because of the added resolution you can achieve in room correction filter performance in the subwoofer channel.
33. Bob S Says:
July 19th, 2009 at 11:17 am
Chris,
My understanding is that Audyssey corrects main speakers’ responses down to their individual -3 db rolloffs in the bass. My question is: -3 db relative to what? Since uncorrected bass frequency response for real speakers in real rooms tends to be pretty lumpy, what’s the assumed 0 db point? I assume you don’t want some amount of real-room “lumpiness” to be incorrectly interpreted as a speaker’s bass rolloff point in a particular room (i.e., if you have, say, a 5 db dip at 60 Hz followed by a 4 db peak at 50 Hz, I would assume you’d want to correct for the 60 Hz dip rather than assuming that’s the bass rolloff point).
34. Chris Says:
July 19th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
Hi Bob,
Finding the roll-off point is a complex calculation. Our algorithms look at the magnitude response in the midrange and then analyze the in-room measured data to figure out where the speaker is starting to roll-off relative to that level. A dip has very different characteristics from a roll off and MultEQ tries to analyze the measured room data to differentiate between the two.
35. Mark Iannone Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
Hi Chris, I have a denon 3808ci reciever B7W speakers all around with a rear center channel. I just recently added a Definitive Tech sub 200 TL. I set the subs crossover to 150 like the included paphlet suggested if my reciever had low cross over filter. I ran MultEQ which a installer set up for me when I first got the reciever. So forgive for saying I am totally confused at this point. After running this and always wanting my speakers at small the MultEq set speakers at large. Is it okay to change it back to small. It also left my crossover at 40 under the advanced mode. I thought is was supposed to be set at 80. Also LFE +main was set and I always thought this was bad. As you can see I need help I just want to know that everything is set the way it is supposed to be and enjoy it. I thought this auto set up would get me there but its only made me more confused.
36. Chris Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
Hi Mark,
First let me clarify: Audyssey does NOT make the call if a speaker is Large or Small. The manufacturer of your product does. As I said in my blog, we would like to see all speakers set to Small if there is a subwoofer in the system so that the benefits of bass management and higher resolution room correction can be applied.
That’s exactly what the last line in my blog says: if your receiver set your speakers to Large change them to Small. The crossover frequency to select should be what you see in the Advanced Mode menu. That’s the frequency that MultEQ found to be the roll off point of your speaker in your room.
Finally, Audyssey does not set or recommend LFE+Main. That needs to be eliminated from receivers. Until then, please set it to LFE.
37. mark Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 5:09 pm
Thanks Chris for clearing this up for me. After I change back to small speakers should I re run the set up?
38. Tim Says:
July 23rd, 2009 at 10:39 am
The saga continues…
from an audio engineers point of view who does not use any bass management when mixing 5.1 material, I would much rather hear the mix as the mixer intended it to be heard (ie all bookshelf/floorstanding speakers set to large) instead of hearing what may in fact be actually on the 5 channels as this is at the cost of introducing often inferior filters to the signal path. As far as I am aware, most mixers do not use bass management at the mixing stage.
For music, my setup sounds best set to large (at moderate levels), although for films and pure sound level maximisation/distortion minimisation, I’m sure small would be the best option. It all depends on what you are aiming for.
39. Tim Says:
July 23rd, 2009 at 11:05 am
just to clarify, I do not think that mix engineers shouldn’t check their mixes with bass management enabled, but in my experience this has not been the default position.
40. Chris Says:
July 23rd, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Hi Tim,
It’s difficult to generalize and say “most mixers”. I was recently in a very famous studio in NY and bass management was used correctly. For 5.1 mixing they use proper home theater bass management and for 2-channel stereo they add an external subwoofer to each of the front two channels with a proper crossover. I have seen this in several other music mixing places as well.
41. Steve Says:
July 27th, 2009 at 9:06 am
Hi Chris,
Whilst I have genuine full range main speakers (flat to 20Hz) I do cross them over at 40Hz as you’ve discussed.
But my question is broader. My main speakers are dipoles, with a different radiation pattern to monopoles. How does Audyssey go with such beasts?
My surrounds are monopoles.
Thanks
42. Chris Says:
July 27th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
Hi Steve,
MultEQ doesn’t really “care” what the radiation pattern of the speakers is. It looks at the combined direct and reflected sound that arrives in the listening area and creates filters to correct for problems.
43. James Says:
July 28th, 2009 at 6:30 am
Hi Chris,
I’m just about to pick up a new Denon AVR with MultEQ.
I’m running a 5 speaker surround setup (no sub). Mains fall below -3dB at about 32Hz, centre and surrounds around 43Hz. Expect MultEQ will probably detect all as ‘large’.
However, as I’m not running a sub, should I leave them all set as ‘large’, or only the mains? If I change the centre and surrounds to ’small’, will any frequencies below the MultEQ crossover disappear completely, or will they get redirected to the ‘large’ mains, as I’m not running a dedicated sub channel?
Thanks, James
44. Chris Says:
July 28th, 2009 at 8:26 am
Hi James,
Without a sub, your front L and R can only be set to Large. There is no other choice. If your L and R have larger woofers than the Center and Surrounds then I would recommend setting those to Small so that bass is redirected to the L and R speakers.
45. Bill Says:
July 29th, 2009 at 9:57 am
I have Polk SDA SRS 2.3’s for my mains and listen large with movies. I hear much more detail with large settings over small settings. Also, I amp the mains with 350 wpc so headroom should not be a problem. With my setup, large is very appropriate for me?
46. Chris Says:
July 29th, 2009 at 11:31 am
Hi Bill,
What subwoofer do you have? When you set them to Small, is your AVR engaging the Double Bass or LFE+Main mode for the subwoofer? It is not recommended to use those modes because they send bass to both the sub and the speakers resulting in boomy bass that can mask details.
47. Bill Says:
July 29th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
My reciever is a Pio ‘94 with external Carver 350 wpc amps and subs are dual Elemental A7S-450’s with the crossover of 80 hz at the reciever. The MBM-12’s are each wired thru the mains with no crossover set as they are set at 50 hz up (extra mid bass this way). The mains are not set “plus” for extra bass. When listening in large it seems that the speaker audio has more depth and the dialoge has more warmth with the bass. My L&R surrounds are Polk RTA 12’s, the rears are Polk Monitor 10’s, with a Polk LSic center.
To clarify - With the MBM’s wired with the mains, it is the same as adding a sub to the mains, and then letting the LFE to it’s own subs. So in a way, I have 4 subs. Two with mains, and two with LFE.
48. Allan Says:
July 29th, 2009 at 7:07 pm
I have 2 satellite speakers for my mains that are wired through my subwoofer first. I also have my subwoofer connected to the LFE port on my receiver. Is this the double bass you refer to? I guess you are suggesting that I hook up the speakers directly to the receiver via speaker wire and only have my sub connected via the LFE?
49. Chris Says:
July 29th, 2009 at 8:04 pm
Hi Allan,
If you have a receiver with MultEQ you will get much better performance by changing your connections. Having the subwoofer be in charge of the crossover is far from ideal. Connect the sub to the subwoofer output of your receiver so that the receiver is in charge of bass management. The MultEQ filters created for the subwoofer channel will give you much higher resolution and therefore better low frequency room correction.
The double bass I mentioned above is something else. Many receivers have a subwoofer mode called “Double Bass” that takes the bass from the satellite speakers and sends it to *both* the subwoofer *and* the satellite speakers even when they are set to “Large”. It’s a really bad idea to use this setting because you end up with overlapping boomy bass.
50. Allan Says:
July 29th, 2009 at 9:11 pm
One more quick question (thanks for responding to my first). My connections are as follows:
Receiver main output to subwoofer, subwoofer to main right and left. My sub has a crossover knob and a gain knob. My sub also has an LFE that IS connected to my receiver.
If i simply turn my receiver setting to small for my mains it will no longer send the full bass signal to my sub or mains that are connected to it via the speaker wire. Since my sub also has the LFE connection will this take care of everything or do I have to phyically unplug the speaker wires from my sub and ONLY have it connected by LFE?
Thank you for help. And just so you know I have a brand new Denon with the MultEQ on it.
51. Chris Says:
July 29th, 2009 at 9:28 pm
Hi Allan,
Don’t connect your L and R speakers to your subwoofer. Connect them to the receiver. Connect the subwoofer output of your receiver to the LFE input of the sub. Then set all your speakers to Small (after running MultEQ) in the Denon. This will let the Denon bass management operate correctly and redirect the bass below the crossover frequency to your sub and the content above the crossover frequency to your speakers.
52. Bryan Says:
July 30th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
Chris,
Is it true that if you change the crossover settings (for any of the 5 channels) to a lower point than Audyssey found for the -3db down point then the corrections will no longer be applied? If so, is it just for the channel you adjusted or is the effect global?
More to the point, is there any way you are aware of to “dummy” a lower crossover and still keep the Audyssey correction for that channel?
53. Chris Says:
July 30th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
Hi Bryan,
Yes it’s true. MultEQ creates correction filters down to the in-room measured –3 dB point of each speaker. It won’t try to correct below that as that could end up boosting below the capability of the speaker. This is done for each speaker individually. So, if you manually set the crossover below the calculated –3 dB point you will not be getting correction from MultEQ below that point.
I am not sure I understand your second question. Why would you want to do that? There are many reasons that a measured roll-off is higher than the manufacturer specs in an anechoic measurement. That’s the whole point of measuring in your room! I hear from many users who feel “insulted” when their “big towers” didn’t measure as low as the spec sheet. Placement in the room and the room itself are the cause of that. There is no performance hit to set your crossover higher than the spec. On the contrary, the blend with the subwoofer will be optimized for your room and the bass going to the sub will benefit from the 8x higher resolution that the MultEQ filters provide in the sub channel.
54. Bryan Says:
July 31st, 2009 at 9:26 am
Chris,
Thank you for your answer. In fact, it makes my second question a moot point if I understand you correctly.
You are saying that the corrections will STILL be applied, but the corrections will only be on the frequencies down to the measured in-room -3dB point?
I think there was a general misunderstanding that all corrections for that channel would be disabled IF you were to lower the crossover below the Audyssey measured -3dB down point.
That is a very acceptable implementation. Thank you.
55. Allan Says:
August 3rd, 2009 at 12:13 pm
Chris,
Do receivers only do bass management when the LFE light shows up on the front panel? The reason I ask is, I’m very happy with the Audyssey settings of my Denon when watching 5.1 content but when I am watching TV with only stereo the bass is gone. So I find that in that scenario putting my fronts as large sounds much better than small. Small sounds better when there is an LFE content feed. Thoughts? By the way I’m very impressed with your technology but even more impressed that you actually “talk to the people” via this blog. Thanks.
56. Chris Says:
August 3rd, 2009 at 1:07 pm
Hi Allan,
Receivers do bass management when your speakers are set to Small. That’s all that “Small” means: “Turn on bass management”. If you set your speakers to Large then no bass is being sent to the subwoofer other than the separate LFE track found in 5.1 content. There is no LFE track in stereo content so with speakers set to Large your subwoofer will be silent.
If you use Direct or Pure Direct in stereo then a lot of the DSP processing (including bass management) is disabled so perhaps this is what you are experiencing with the TV source.
57. darrell Says:
August 4th, 2009 at 9:17 am
if the audyssey software suggests all speakers to have bass management set to on (ie small mode) what are the biggest speakers i need to achieve the ultimate sound. since you dont manufacture speakers, i assume i should get a pretty unbiased response thanks for your time on this discussion.
58. Chris Says:
August 4th, 2009 at 10:35 am
Hi Darrell,
That’s one of those impossible-to-answer questions. Besides the fact that I can’t go into specific product recommendations, it’s actually not an easy question to answer. “Ultimate sound” means different things to different people. For me it means: “hearing what was heard by the people who made the content”. To do that we have to reproduce the frequency range, dynamic range, and surround impression that was experienced in the creation of the content. There is no one “magic” speaker recommendation that will achieve that. But, there are a set of problems that prevent you from experiencing this regardless of the speaker system you have:
1) The frequency response of your speakers in your room is different than what was used to make the content.
This is what Audyssey MultEQ tries to solve by measuring the room and creating a set of filters that correct acoustical problems.
This is also an area where proper bass management is needed. Content is made to extend to a certain low frequency and at a certain sound pressure level. The amplifier power needed to reproduce the required SPL levels at low frequencies is quite high and so, using a separate subwoofer amp for that purpose is beneficial to the playback quality of the entire system.
Furthermore, the MultEQ room correction filters in the subwoofer channel have 8x more resolution and so redirecting content to that channel for reproduction greatly improves the bass response in your listening room.
2) Most people at home typically listen at levels 10-20 dB below what the mixers listen. Because human hearing perceives octave-to-octave balance differently at lower volumes we developed Dynamic EQ to adjust for that so that the balance is restored even at low volumes. Our perception of surround impression also changes at lower volumes so Dynamic EQ makes an adjustment to the surround speaker level to maintain constant surround impression.
59. darrell Says:
August 4th, 2009 at 11:59 am
thanks for the response. i didnt think you could recommend a brand. but i hoped that you could recommend a certain specification or type of speaker that sounds best after audyssey is ran. for instance, is a center channel with 2 6.5 inch woofers going to sound as good as a center channel with 2 3.5 inch woofers after audyssey is ran? is a three way speaker better than a two way speaker for the fronts? surrounds? center?
my thinking is that a three way speaker should theoretically sound better than a two way speaker since you have a third speaker covering the complete frequency range. or is all this negated by using audyssey?
60. Chris Says:
August 4th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
Hi Darrell,
Audyssey MultEQ is not a technology that will fix speaker design problems. It is a technology that will fix room acoustics problems. So, a speaker with two 3.5″ woofers will not play as low as one with two 6.5″ woofers because of anything that MultEQ does. Instead, they will each perform as well as they can considering the limitations of their design, placement, and room acoustics.
61. desray Says:
August 5th, 2009 at 8:06 am
Hi Chris, I’ve been using the SVS AS-EQ1 for some time now and I must say I’m quite impressed about its quality.
Now just some questions that has been lingering in my mind for quite some time now…and I think you’re the best person to approach.
You mentioned that there’s actually 2 types of response curve…one is flat and the other one called reference. The latter is something I’m quite interested in…in the past, I have used Parametric EQ to derive what I will called my very own unique ‘house curve’ which is like what Audyssey Reference will be…boosting certain set of frequencies to get that kind of ‘aggressive’ and ‘impactful’ bass during movies.
Now my question is will SVS AS-EQ1 able to allow reference curve measurement instead of the default flat curve? And why is flat curve better than a ‘house curve’ although I have to admit that flat curve actually made music sounded alot better BUT it lost its shine during some of the movies. Can SVS AS-EQ1 do reference curve as well?
Many thanks!
62. Cribeiro Says:
August 6th, 2009 at 12:06 am
Hello Chris,
this has been an interesting reading.
I wanted to mention that some AVRs also apply Dolby’s Dynamic Range Compression to Dolby Digital soundtracks when no subwoofer channel or center channel is present, and this cannot be turned off.
I have not checked if it also happens when setting the speakers to “Large”, though. But this is a word of caution for those going the “no center” and/or “no sub” route (or connecting the sub via high-level from the speaker outputs of the AVR).
Regards,
Alberto
63. Chris Says:
August 6th, 2009 at 8:47 am
Hi Desray,
This discussion probably belongs in the Reference vs Preference blog. The Audyssey reference curve is not really a house curve based on preference. It is intended to provide a translation of the conditions in the mix environment to the home environment. It considers factors such as listening distance, direct-to-reverberant-ratio and others. This translation is only needed in the high frequency range. The low frequency range is calibrated to a flat curve to match what was used in the creation of the content.
So, yes, the SVS AS-EQ1 calibrates your subwoofer to reference by setting the level to be the same as the satellite speakers and correcting the response so that it is flat over the listening area.
και εδω σχολια και απαντησεις
63 Responses to “Small vs. Large”
1. Tom Damico Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 6:40 am
If the argument is that all speakers are small if you have a subwoofer. Then why does your software set my speakers to large when it knows that I have a subwoofer?
2. Chris Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 6:47 am
Hi Tom,
The reason for that is that Audyssey is not “allowed” to make that determination. The decision to call a speaker Small or Large is made by each manufacturer. Until recently most used 80 Hz as the criterion to make that decision. So, for example, a speaker that was found to have a –3 dB roll off at 70 Hz would be called Large by the AVR maker. Bass management would be turned off for that speaker resulting in no bass being sent to the subwoofer.
We managed to convince most manufacturers that this was a very bad idea. As a result, most now use 40 Hz as the decision point. An improvement, but not the ultimate solution.
3. Tom Damico Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 7:22 am
Thanks. A very reasonible explanation. BTW are your familiar with the NAD Audyssey curve that NAD provides? What does that curve do differently than plain Audyssey.
4. Chris Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 7:51 am
The core MultEQ room correction algorithm in the NAD products is exactly the same as all other licensee products. Audyssey provides two target sound curves (Audyssey Flat and Audyssey Reference). NAD has an additional target sound curve that is very similar to the Audyssey Reference curve with a slightly elevated bass region and a slightly rolled off high frequency region.
5. Rao Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
Very good article.
I wish you guys also can come with a software similar to MultEQ that can be used for “Boss” Management
6. Greg Lee Says:
May 30th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
I just spent some time using my receiver’s setup function to flip my side surrounds back and forth from the “large” to the “small” settings, then flipping my fronts back and forth from “large” to “small”, and listening. The “large” setting for both sounds best. So for this reason and one other, I’m not convinced that “small” is always best. The other reason is that the article gives no real evidence — it’s just a series of unsupported assertions and references. The improved headroom argument is merely theoretical, and even at that would only make a difference in a system where the headroom is needed to improve the sound.
–Greg
7. Chris Says:
May 30th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
Hi Greg,
The headroom improvement is not theoretical. Using the fixed amplifier power over a narrower frequency range gives an improvement in headroom. That is a rather basic principle.
I would be curious to know what content you are using for evaluation of your surrounds and how your speaker levels are calibrated. I am wondering whether a different reason might be causing you to prefer Large: if there is too much bass in the surround signal then sending that to the sub may make the mix sound boomy. When you set them to Large and that bass is no longer being reproduced you may prefer that balance. This can happen, for example, if your subwoofer level is not set to reference relative to the satellite channels. Sending the bass content from the surrounds to it can offset the reference balance.
8. Greg Lee Says:
May 30th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
I intended to be questioning whether an improvement in headroom necessarily improves the sound (not whether there is an improvement in headroom).
Answering your questions: Just now I was playing the XM Real Jazz channel — don’t recall just what was on. (I think I have some sense of how plucked bass is supposed to sound, so that’s why I tend to listen to jazz when I’m evaluating bass.)
I used Pioneer’s MCACC to set the vsx-817 receiver’s levels and (5 band) equalization. I didn’t change that (though I have at times in the past hotted up the sub level).
I’m not questioning your diagnosis of why my system isn’t following your rule (if in fact it isn’t). I’m just reporting, and also asking for some evidence that speakers should always be set to “small”.
–Greg
9. Chris Says:
May 30th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
Hi Greg,
It’s very hard to comment on content that is so highly compressed and not in surround to begin with. Who knows what the upmixing algorithm you are using is doing to the surround signals…
I would suggest using film multichannel content that is mixed to well established and adhered to standards before making your final decision.
It is well established in the literature that an improvement in amplifier headroom improves sound quality. There are papers that you can find in the Audio Engineering Society archives that date back many decades. The biggest benefit comes in transient peaks that require large headroom reserves to be reproduced correctly. See for example: P. W. Mitchell, “A Musically Appropriate Dynamic Headroom Test for Power Amplifiers”, AES Convention, paper 2504, (1987).
But, this may also be a case of preference vs. reference. You may be interested in reading my thoughts on that here: http://www.audyssey.com/blog/category/blog/2009/05/reference-vs-preference/
10. Roger Dressler Says:
June 8th, 2009 at 10:38 am
Just a couple of points of clarification, if I may.
In the early days of home theater, no one was ever expected to use 5 full range speakers. The surround channels in theatrical soundtracks did not (and still do not) carry deep bass, so no need for large surrounds in theaters or in homes. Later (1987), when Pro Logic was introduced, and the center speaker joined the party, it could also use a small speaker, as there was a form of bass management built in. The consumer could choose Large, Small, or None (phantom C). In Small, the bass was removed from C and split into L/R. Subwoofers were not too popular yet in homes.
The idea for directing the bass to a dedicated subwoofer channel with its own amplifier to improve headroom in the main channels was introduced 10 years earlier than you cite—-Star Wars, 1977, as detailed in Tom’s book “Surround Sound, Up and Running.”
–Roger
11. JBH Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 12:43 am
One possible route to “bass management” that went unexplored in this post but that is available in most (if not perhaps all) Audyssey-equipped receivers and preamps is the use of “LFE+Main” or “DoubleBass” mode. In such modes, as I understand them, the mains run full-range AND the subwoofers - that is plural for a reason! - are lowpassed in at a specified frequency. So in the lower octaves, both mains and subwoofers are receiving signal.
With that in mind, what about a special (dare I write, ideal) case: LCR mains that are genuinely capable of reaching reasonably deep (<40Hz) with enough cone area and box volume to do so efficiently. Additionally, let’s stipulate that the mains/amp system allows functionally limitless headroom above the mains’ lower cutoff when run full range.
In such a case, would you recommend still setting the mains to “small” at some frequency, or would you recommend using the LFE+Main mode in attempts to better randomize the effects of room modes?
12. Chris Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 8:16 am
LFE+Main or Double Bass is an option that was specifically created by AVR makers to appease customers who were personally “offended” when their speakers were designated Small. With this option, the bass from the supposed Large speakers is not lost and is redirected to the subwoofer. The problem is that in the overlap frequency region between the sub and the speaker the bass is doubled and therefore not correct. Having a sub is only beneficial if the content between it and the satellite speakers is properly spliced so the blend doesn’t cause issues. Just playing the same content from both doesn’t do that.
Yes, there is a benefit in distributing the bass from multiple sources. But the only way to do that correctly is with more than one subwoofer.
13. Jaco Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 11:17 am
My main speakers are full range actives that go down to 15Hz at reference levels, so they’re set to large. Needless to say, I don’t have a separate sub connected to the LFE channel of my Denon AVR-3808. You stated that “the MultEQ subwoofer filters have 8x higher resolution than the filters in the other channels.” What happens to those filters in my setup? Do they just sit idle, or are they re-assigned to help manage the bass spectrum of my full range main speakers?
14. Chris Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 10:31 pm
The filters in the subwoofer channel are designed to only operate in that channel and so they will remain unused if there is no subwoofer in the system.
15. Greg Lee Says:
June 14th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
In comment on what JBH says about the DoubleBass mode, I think perhaps there is some resurgence of interest in using this due to some remarks of Geddes to the effect that the more different sources of bass you have, the better. But of course you do need to control the booms from having several bass sources at some frequencies. I’ve had some success using DoubleBass in the past and dialing down the subwoofer’s crossover knob to control the duplication region.
16. Noel Weavers Says:
June 15th, 2009 at 5:14 am
Hi Chris
I totally agree with your assertion that if you use a sub your speakers should be set as small, so I hope my question is not too off topic for you to answer.
My question relates to the new sub equaliser. I am currently using an Audyssey Sound Equalizer, I run 2 subs and am wondering if the sub equalizer is a better option for dealing with equalizing and blending two subs or is it the same as what I already have with the Audyssey Sound Equalizer.
17. Chris Says:
June 15th, 2009 at 8:21 am
Hi Noel,
The Sub Equalizer performs more advanced processing for two subs. It first finds the delay and levels for each sub individually and then applies that correction. Then it measures the two time and level aligned subs as “one”. This gives much better low frequency correction when you have two subs.
18. Toby Says:
June 17th, 2009 at 6:30 pm
Hi Chris,
So if I have two subwoofers connected to independent channels on the Audyssey Sound Equalizer I will not get as good a result as the Sub equalizer? If that is true am I to daisy chain a Sub equalizer to my Audyssey Sound Equalizer? Or can I get my Sound Equalizer upgraded?
19. Chris Says:
June 17th, 2009 at 10:45 pm
Hi Toby,
Yes, the additional processing in the Sub Equalizer will do a better job of blending two subs. You can feed the sub output of a Sound EQ to the Sub EQ, but you are better off taking the subwoofer signal from the pre-pro and going directly to the Sub EQ. We don’t currently have any plans announced to upgrade the Sound Equalizer, but will keep you posted if that changes.
20. Alf Says:
June 22nd, 2009 at 3:17 am
Dear Chris,
I’ve been reading your posts from AVS and here as well and am truly impressed.
I use an Onkyo TX SR 805 with a Bose Accoustimass 10 system (I know they may not be every one’s favorite). Bose recommends setting all speakers as “Full Band”. Audyssey sets them at “Full Band” as well. Should I stick to this configuration or swtich to say 80hz crossover for my satellites. As you would know bass for all channels is managed by the bass module in Bose and the LFE channel is output from another driver in the same enclosure.
After running the Auddysey setup, I find that the bass is “very low” from the 5 channels (sub seems ok). This is not preferential bass I am talking about, but rather you feel the loss of low frequency detail especially while playing music.
Sorry for the long post, but you would seem to be the only person who could answer.
21. Chris Says:
June 23rd, 2009 at 5:11 am
Hi Alf,
If you feed your surround channels to the bass module then they will be automatically found to be Full Range because the receiver doesn’t know there is a subwoofer connected.
The only way to set a crossover in the receiver for your satellites is to allow the receiver to do the bass management and feed the bass module from the Sub Out connector on the back of the AVR.
The problem is that the satellites are quite small and start to roll off around 150-200 Hz so to blend them with the bass module would require you to manually set the crossovers to 150 Hz or so.
22. Ralph Says:
June 26th, 2009 at 9:50 pm
Hi Chris, let me see if I understand you what you are saying is that in a general situation if you have a subwoofer then all of your speaker should be set to small, so that the proper bass would be heard correctly?
What is the sense of having large speakers then? thought that it would be for better sound such as the highs and the lows in the movie or CD.
Thanks
23. Chris Says:
June 27th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
Hi Ralph,
Let’s go back to the definition of Small and Large speakers. These are poorly chosen names that actually mean:
Large: Turn off bass management and don’t send low frequency content from this speaker to the subwoofer.
Small: Turn on bass management and send low frequency content below the crossover frequency to the subwoofer.
So, yes, I am advocating that if you have a subwoofer then bass management should always be on. The benefits in amplifier headroom improvement and higher resolution low frequency room correction are significant.
The physical size of speakers does not really guarantee anything about sound quality. It depends on their design and, more importantly, on the effects of the room they are placed in.
24. biomed_eng_2000 Says:
July 5th, 2009 at 8:59 am
Yeah, they should change the names.
Small => Bass Managed
Large => Bass Mismanaged
25. Jon Austenaa Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 4:57 pm
1. My Denon 2809 has a “LFE+Main” setting. Is this a nasty option that breaks the Audyssey EQ so the listener get too much bass, or is it a good thing for people with small speakers and large room?
2. Shouldnt the Audyssey setup give a warning if subwoofer trim is at lowest, and ask you to turn down the volume on the sub and run a new test? I noticed this only after reading long Audyssey faq and found i had to turn sub down to only 20% volume to get above the -12dB trim.
26. Chris Says:
July 12th, 2009 at 11:15 am
Hi Jon,
1. LFE+Main is not recommended. It can end up doubling the bass in the overlap frequency range between the sub and the speakers.
2. This has been implemented in the new models that are coming out this year.
27. Jeff Says:
July 13th, 2009 at 8:53 am
Chris, great post. Few questions.
1. What are the “trim limits” on db correction for the sub channel? I’m asking because Audyssey gave my subs (built into my JBL S412PII speakers) a “+12db” correction. I’m wondering if that’s ok, or whether I should increase the gain (had it set to exctly middle) and re-run Audyssey? FWIW, things sound just fine. Since I’m using a new Denon AVR-890, I wasn’t sure if this has the max/min trim level warning that you reference the “new models taht are coming out this year” will have. Also, my subs don’t have any sort of filter or other adjustments…just the one main knob
2. With having these two subs, the way I’m currently running these is to run the sub cable from each speaker into a “Y” splitter and then connecting the Y into the sub input in the back of the receiver (as per page 5 of the manual in the link above). This is fine to do, correct? I have no idea what else I might need to do other than this, but I thought I should at least check.
3. Given these speakers that I am using, this doesn’t end up as some exception to the rule of this Large vs Small post, since the subs are really part of the front speakers themselves, right?
4. I have yet to switch the front speaker setting to Small in Audyssey (just reat this article!). Can I simply go into the manual setup and change them, and I’m good? No need to re-run any setup then? This will not cancel or ruin the Audyssey Dynamic EQ that is currently set?
Thanks for the great info!
28. Chris Says:
July 14th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
Hi Jeff,
Every manufacturer decides what trim limits to use based on their gain structure. ±12 dB is typical, but some use ±15 dB. In general, you want to avoid having a sub trim found near the limit because it would mean that the volume on the back of the sub is turned up too high or too low.
Two subs are best corrected when MultEQ can measure the time delay and level for each one individually and then create a filter for the combination. But, most AVR products available do not allow subs to be handled individually this way. A y splitter is fine, but try to place the subs so that they are at the same distance from the main listening position.
It doesn’t matter if the subs are built in to the speaker cabinets. If they provide you with a line-level input then you should use it and set the other speakers to Small so that the bass management system can redirect the bass to the subs.
Yes, you can (and should) change to Small after MultEQ is finished and stored. Doing it before will have no effect as it will be reset by the AVR.
29. Brandon Says:
July 17th, 2009 at 9:22 am
If you have your speakers set to small and the crossover is set to 80hz to the sub, wouldn’t you want to increase the range to sub to like 150-300?
my fronts and rears are the same speaker with a 1″ tweeter and 4″ mid
Would this give you more bass or muddier bass?
30. Chris Says:
July 17th, 2009 at 9:32 am
Hi Brandon,
The crossover is actually two filters: a highpass filter applied to the satellite and a lowpass applied to the subwoofer. So, when you say “my crossover is at 80 Hz” that means that frequencies above that are going to the satellite and below that to the subwoofer. Using a different frequency for the highpass and lowpass filters is not a good idea because it can lead to blending problems.
31. Brandon Says:
July 17th, 2009 at 10:52 am
I keep thinking about a 3-way system where you may have the sub at 500hz the mid at 2500-3000hz and everything else for the tweeter.
Is this different than a standard 3-way or do the same rules apply. My speakers are just 2-way would you get better results with a 3-way?
When you say you may get blending problems would that mean to much bass is going to the sub?
32. Chris Says:
July 17th, 2009 at 11:28 am
The woofer in a 3-way system is not the same as the subwoofer in a bass managed system. The discussion here is about bass managing speakers (2-way or 3-way) with a separate subwoofer. There are important benefits in doing that, particularly because of the added resolution you can achieve in room correction filter performance in the subwoofer channel.
33. Bob S Says:
July 19th, 2009 at 11:17 am
Chris,
My understanding is that Audyssey corrects main speakers’ responses down to their individual -3 db rolloffs in the bass. My question is: -3 db relative to what? Since uncorrected bass frequency response for real speakers in real rooms tends to be pretty lumpy, what’s the assumed 0 db point? I assume you don’t want some amount of real-room “lumpiness” to be incorrectly interpreted as a speaker’s bass rolloff point in a particular room (i.e., if you have, say, a 5 db dip at 60 Hz followed by a 4 db peak at 50 Hz, I would assume you’d want to correct for the 60 Hz dip rather than assuming that’s the bass rolloff point).
34. Chris Says:
July 19th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
Hi Bob,
Finding the roll-off point is a complex calculation. Our algorithms look at the magnitude response in the midrange and then analyze the in-room measured data to figure out where the speaker is starting to roll-off relative to that level. A dip has very different characteristics from a roll off and MultEQ tries to analyze the measured room data to differentiate between the two.
35. Mark Iannone Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
Hi Chris, I have a denon 3808ci reciever B7W speakers all around with a rear center channel. I just recently added a Definitive Tech sub 200 TL. I set the subs crossover to 150 like the included paphlet suggested if my reciever had low cross over filter. I ran MultEQ which a installer set up for me when I first got the reciever. So forgive for saying I am totally confused at this point. After running this and always wanting my speakers at small the MultEq set speakers at large. Is it okay to change it back to small. It also left my crossover at 40 under the advanced mode. I thought is was supposed to be set at 80. Also LFE +main was set and I always thought this was bad. As you can see I need help I just want to know that everything is set the way it is supposed to be and enjoy it. I thought this auto set up would get me there but its only made me more confused.
36. Chris Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
Hi Mark,
First let me clarify: Audyssey does NOT make the call if a speaker is Large or Small. The manufacturer of your product does. As I said in my blog, we would like to see all speakers set to Small if there is a subwoofer in the system so that the benefits of bass management and higher resolution room correction can be applied.
That’s exactly what the last line in my blog says: if your receiver set your speakers to Large change them to Small. The crossover frequency to select should be what you see in the Advanced Mode menu. That’s the frequency that MultEQ found to be the roll off point of your speaker in your room.
Finally, Audyssey does not set or recommend LFE+Main. That needs to be eliminated from receivers. Until then, please set it to LFE.
37. mark Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 5:09 pm
Thanks Chris for clearing this up for me. After I change back to small speakers should I re run the set up?
38. Tim Says:
July 23rd, 2009 at 10:39 am
The saga continues…
from an audio engineers point of view who does not use any bass management when mixing 5.1 material, I would much rather hear the mix as the mixer intended it to be heard (ie all bookshelf/floorstanding speakers set to large) instead of hearing what may in fact be actually on the 5 channels as this is at the cost of introducing often inferior filters to the signal path. As far as I am aware, most mixers do not use bass management at the mixing stage.
For music, my setup sounds best set to large (at moderate levels), although for films and pure sound level maximisation/distortion minimisation, I’m sure small would be the best option. It all depends on what you are aiming for.
39. Tim Says:
July 23rd, 2009 at 11:05 am
just to clarify, I do not think that mix engineers shouldn’t check their mixes with bass management enabled, but in my experience this has not been the default position.
40. Chris Says:
July 23rd, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Hi Tim,
It’s difficult to generalize and say “most mixers”. I was recently in a very famous studio in NY and bass management was used correctly. For 5.1 mixing they use proper home theater bass management and for 2-channel stereo they add an external subwoofer to each of the front two channels with a proper crossover. I have seen this in several other music mixing places as well.
41. Steve Says:
July 27th, 2009 at 9:06 am
Hi Chris,
Whilst I have genuine full range main speakers (flat to 20Hz) I do cross them over at 40Hz as you’ve discussed.
But my question is broader. My main speakers are dipoles, with a different radiation pattern to monopoles. How does Audyssey go with such beasts?
My surrounds are monopoles.
Thanks
42. Chris Says:
July 27th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
Hi Steve,
MultEQ doesn’t really “care” what the radiation pattern of the speakers is. It looks at the combined direct and reflected sound that arrives in the listening area and creates filters to correct for problems.
43. James Says:
July 28th, 2009 at 6:30 am
Hi Chris,
I’m just about to pick up a new Denon AVR with MultEQ.
I’m running a 5 speaker surround setup (no sub). Mains fall below -3dB at about 32Hz, centre and surrounds around 43Hz. Expect MultEQ will probably detect all as ‘large’.
However, as I’m not running a sub, should I leave them all set as ‘large’, or only the mains? If I change the centre and surrounds to ’small’, will any frequencies below the MultEQ crossover disappear completely, or will they get redirected to the ‘large’ mains, as I’m not running a dedicated sub channel?
Thanks, James
44. Chris Says:
July 28th, 2009 at 8:26 am
Hi James,
Without a sub, your front L and R can only be set to Large. There is no other choice. If your L and R have larger woofers than the Center and Surrounds then I would recommend setting those to Small so that bass is redirected to the L and R speakers.
45. Bill Says:
July 29th, 2009 at 9:57 am
I have Polk SDA SRS 2.3’s for my mains and listen large with movies. I hear much more detail with large settings over small settings. Also, I amp the mains with 350 wpc so headroom should not be a problem. With my setup, large is very appropriate for me?
46. Chris Says:
July 29th, 2009 at 11:31 am
Hi Bill,
What subwoofer do you have? When you set them to Small, is your AVR engaging the Double Bass or LFE+Main mode for the subwoofer? It is not recommended to use those modes because they send bass to both the sub and the speakers resulting in boomy bass that can mask details.
47. Bill Says:
July 29th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
My reciever is a Pio ‘94 with external Carver 350 wpc amps and subs are dual Elemental A7S-450’s with the crossover of 80 hz at the reciever. The MBM-12’s are each wired thru the mains with no crossover set as they are set at 50 hz up (extra mid bass this way). The mains are not set “plus” for extra bass. When listening in large it seems that the speaker audio has more depth and the dialoge has more warmth with the bass. My L&R surrounds are Polk RTA 12’s, the rears are Polk Monitor 10’s, with a Polk LSic center.
To clarify - With the MBM’s wired with the mains, it is the same as adding a sub to the mains, and then letting the LFE to it’s own subs. So in a way, I have 4 subs. Two with mains, and two with LFE.
48. Allan Says:
July 29th, 2009 at 7:07 pm
I have 2 satellite speakers for my mains that are wired through my subwoofer first. I also have my subwoofer connected to the LFE port on my receiver. Is this the double bass you refer to? I guess you are suggesting that I hook up the speakers directly to the receiver via speaker wire and only have my sub connected via the LFE?
49. Chris Says:
July 29th, 2009 at 8:04 pm
Hi Allan,
If you have a receiver with MultEQ you will get much better performance by changing your connections. Having the subwoofer be in charge of the crossover is far from ideal. Connect the sub to the subwoofer output of your receiver so that the receiver is in charge of bass management. The MultEQ filters created for the subwoofer channel will give you much higher resolution and therefore better low frequency room correction.
The double bass I mentioned above is something else. Many receivers have a subwoofer mode called “Double Bass” that takes the bass from the satellite speakers and sends it to *both* the subwoofer *and* the satellite speakers even when they are set to “Large”. It’s a really bad idea to use this setting because you end up with overlapping boomy bass.
50. Allan Says:
July 29th, 2009 at 9:11 pm
One more quick question (thanks for responding to my first). My connections are as follows:
Receiver main output to subwoofer, subwoofer to main right and left. My sub has a crossover knob and a gain knob. My sub also has an LFE that IS connected to my receiver.
If i simply turn my receiver setting to small for my mains it will no longer send the full bass signal to my sub or mains that are connected to it via the speaker wire. Since my sub also has the LFE connection will this take care of everything or do I have to phyically unplug the speaker wires from my sub and ONLY have it connected by LFE?
Thank you for help. And just so you know I have a brand new Denon with the MultEQ on it.
51. Chris Says:
July 29th, 2009 at 9:28 pm
Hi Allan,
Don’t connect your L and R speakers to your subwoofer. Connect them to the receiver. Connect the subwoofer output of your receiver to the LFE input of the sub. Then set all your speakers to Small (after running MultEQ) in the Denon. This will let the Denon bass management operate correctly and redirect the bass below the crossover frequency to your sub and the content above the crossover frequency to your speakers.
52. Bryan Says:
July 30th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
Chris,
Is it true that if you change the crossover settings (for any of the 5 channels) to a lower point than Audyssey found for the -3db down point then the corrections will no longer be applied? If so, is it just for the channel you adjusted or is the effect global?
More to the point, is there any way you are aware of to “dummy” a lower crossover and still keep the Audyssey correction for that channel?
53. Chris Says:
July 30th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
Hi Bryan,
Yes it’s true. MultEQ creates correction filters down to the in-room measured –3 dB point of each speaker. It won’t try to correct below that as that could end up boosting below the capability of the speaker. This is done for each speaker individually. So, if you manually set the crossover below the calculated –3 dB point you will not be getting correction from MultEQ below that point.
I am not sure I understand your second question. Why would you want to do that? There are many reasons that a measured roll-off is higher than the manufacturer specs in an anechoic measurement. That’s the whole point of measuring in your room! I hear from many users who feel “insulted” when their “big towers” didn’t measure as low as the spec sheet. Placement in the room and the room itself are the cause of that. There is no performance hit to set your crossover higher than the spec. On the contrary, the blend with the subwoofer will be optimized for your room and the bass going to the sub will benefit from the 8x higher resolution that the MultEQ filters provide in the sub channel.
54. Bryan Says:
July 31st, 2009 at 9:26 am
Chris,
Thank you for your answer. In fact, it makes my second question a moot point if I understand you correctly.
You are saying that the corrections will STILL be applied, but the corrections will only be on the frequencies down to the measured in-room -3dB point?
I think there was a general misunderstanding that all corrections for that channel would be disabled IF you were to lower the crossover below the Audyssey measured -3dB down point.
That is a very acceptable implementation. Thank you.
55. Allan Says:
August 3rd, 2009 at 12:13 pm
Chris,
Do receivers only do bass management when the LFE light shows up on the front panel? The reason I ask is, I’m very happy with the Audyssey settings of my Denon when watching 5.1 content but when I am watching TV with only stereo the bass is gone. So I find that in that scenario putting my fronts as large sounds much better than small. Small sounds better when there is an LFE content feed. Thoughts? By the way I’m very impressed with your technology but even more impressed that you actually “talk to the people” via this blog. Thanks.
56. Chris Says:
August 3rd, 2009 at 1:07 pm
Hi Allan,
Receivers do bass management when your speakers are set to Small. That’s all that “Small” means: “Turn on bass management”. If you set your speakers to Large then no bass is being sent to the subwoofer other than the separate LFE track found in 5.1 content. There is no LFE track in stereo content so with speakers set to Large your subwoofer will be silent.
If you use Direct or Pure Direct in stereo then a lot of the DSP processing (including bass management) is disabled so perhaps this is what you are experiencing with the TV source.
57. darrell Says:
August 4th, 2009 at 9:17 am
if the audyssey software suggests all speakers to have bass management set to on (ie small mode) what are the biggest speakers i need to achieve the ultimate sound. since you dont manufacture speakers, i assume i should get a pretty unbiased response thanks for your time on this discussion.
58. Chris Says:
August 4th, 2009 at 10:35 am
Hi Darrell,
That’s one of those impossible-to-answer questions. Besides the fact that I can’t go into specific product recommendations, it’s actually not an easy question to answer. “Ultimate sound” means different things to different people. For me it means: “hearing what was heard by the people who made the content”. To do that we have to reproduce the frequency range, dynamic range, and surround impression that was experienced in the creation of the content. There is no one “magic” speaker recommendation that will achieve that. But, there are a set of problems that prevent you from experiencing this regardless of the speaker system you have:
1) The frequency response of your speakers in your room is different than what was used to make the content.
This is what Audyssey MultEQ tries to solve by measuring the room and creating a set of filters that correct acoustical problems.
This is also an area where proper bass management is needed. Content is made to extend to a certain low frequency and at a certain sound pressure level. The amplifier power needed to reproduce the required SPL levels at low frequencies is quite high and so, using a separate subwoofer amp for that purpose is beneficial to the playback quality of the entire system.
Furthermore, the MultEQ room correction filters in the subwoofer channel have 8x more resolution and so redirecting content to that channel for reproduction greatly improves the bass response in your listening room.
2) Most people at home typically listen at levels 10-20 dB below what the mixers listen. Because human hearing perceives octave-to-octave balance differently at lower volumes we developed Dynamic EQ to adjust for that so that the balance is restored even at low volumes. Our perception of surround impression also changes at lower volumes so Dynamic EQ makes an adjustment to the surround speaker level to maintain constant surround impression.
59. darrell Says:
August 4th, 2009 at 11:59 am
thanks for the response. i didnt think you could recommend a brand. but i hoped that you could recommend a certain specification or type of speaker that sounds best after audyssey is ran. for instance, is a center channel with 2 6.5 inch woofers going to sound as good as a center channel with 2 3.5 inch woofers after audyssey is ran? is a three way speaker better than a two way speaker for the fronts? surrounds? center?
my thinking is that a three way speaker should theoretically sound better than a two way speaker since you have a third speaker covering the complete frequency range. or is all this negated by using audyssey?
60. Chris Says:
August 4th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
Hi Darrell,
Audyssey MultEQ is not a technology that will fix speaker design problems. It is a technology that will fix room acoustics problems. So, a speaker with two 3.5″ woofers will not play as low as one with two 6.5″ woofers because of anything that MultEQ does. Instead, they will each perform as well as they can considering the limitations of their design, placement, and room acoustics.
61. desray Says:
August 5th, 2009 at 8:06 am
Hi Chris, I’ve been using the SVS AS-EQ1 for some time now and I must say I’m quite impressed about its quality.
Now just some questions that has been lingering in my mind for quite some time now…and I think you’re the best person to approach.
You mentioned that there’s actually 2 types of response curve…one is flat and the other one called reference. The latter is something I’m quite interested in…in the past, I have used Parametric EQ to derive what I will called my very own unique ‘house curve’ which is like what Audyssey Reference will be…boosting certain set of frequencies to get that kind of ‘aggressive’ and ‘impactful’ bass during movies.
Now my question is will SVS AS-EQ1 able to allow reference curve measurement instead of the default flat curve? And why is flat curve better than a ‘house curve’ although I have to admit that flat curve actually made music sounded alot better BUT it lost its shine during some of the movies. Can SVS AS-EQ1 do reference curve as well?
Many thanks!
62. Cribeiro Says:
August 6th, 2009 at 12:06 am
Hello Chris,
this has been an interesting reading.
I wanted to mention that some AVRs also apply Dolby’s Dynamic Range Compression to Dolby Digital soundtracks when no subwoofer channel or center channel is present, and this cannot be turned off.
I have not checked if it also happens when setting the speakers to “Large”, though. But this is a word of caution for those going the “no center” and/or “no sub” route (or connecting the sub via high-level from the speaker outputs of the AVR).
Regards,
Alberto
63. Chris Says:
August 6th, 2009 at 8:47 am
Hi Desray,
This discussion probably belongs in the Reference vs Preference blog. The Audyssey reference curve is not really a house curve based on preference. It is intended to provide a translation of the conditions in the mix environment to the home environment. It considers factors such as listening distance, direct-to-reverberant-ratio and others. This translation is only needed in the high frequency range. The low frequency range is calibrated to a flat curve to match what was used in the creation of the content.
So, yes, the SVS AS-EQ1 calibrates your subwoofer to reference by setting the level to be the same as the satellite speakers and correcting the response so that it is flat over the listening area.
acoustics
Senior Member
- 27 August 2007
- 642
Re: ΠΕΡΙ ΜΙΚΡΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΜΕΓΑΛΩΝ...
Λοιπόν, το auto setup του Audyssey στο Denon, βγάζει όλα τα ηχεία Focal JMlab Profile, ως Large.
Ο κατασκευαστής των ηχείων δίνει αποκρίσεις στα -3 dB ως ακολούθως:
- εμπρόσθια επιδαπέδια 40 Hz
- εμπρόσθιο κεντρικό 65 Hz
- surround 75 Hz
Για τις συχνότητες crossover, πριν από το auto set up επιλέγω αυθαίρετα 60 Hz για τα δύο εμπρόσθια επιδαπέδια, 80 Hz για το κεντρικό, 80 Hz για τα surround και 80 Hz για LFE (subwoofer).
Μετά από το auto setup βρίσκω να μου δίνει νέες συχνότητες crossover τα 40 Hz και για τα τρία εμπρόσθια, ενώ αφήνει τα 80 Hz για τα surround και LFE.
Μήπως, ότι ηχείο κατεβαίνει κάτω από τα 80 Hz επιλέγεται από το auto setup ως Large?
Λοιπόν, το auto setup του Audyssey στο Denon, βγάζει όλα τα ηχεία Focal JMlab Profile, ως Large.
Ο κατασκευαστής των ηχείων δίνει αποκρίσεις στα -3 dB ως ακολούθως:
- εμπρόσθια επιδαπέδια 40 Hz
- εμπρόσθιο κεντρικό 65 Hz
- surround 75 Hz
Για τις συχνότητες crossover, πριν από το auto set up επιλέγω αυθαίρετα 60 Hz για τα δύο εμπρόσθια επιδαπέδια, 80 Hz για το κεντρικό, 80 Hz για τα surround και 80 Hz για LFE (subwoofer).
Μετά από το auto setup βρίσκω να μου δίνει νέες συχνότητες crossover τα 40 Hz και για τα τρία εμπρόσθια, ενώ αφήνει τα 80 Hz για τα surround και LFE.
Μήπως, ότι ηχείο κατεβαίνει κάτω από τα 80 Hz επιλέγεται από το auto setup ως Large?
Budda
Supreme Member
Re: ΠΕΡΙ ΜΙΚΡΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΜΕΓΑΛΩΝ...
acoustics
Πες μου τι πατερν χρησιμοποιησες (δλδ σε ποιες θεσεις) ,και ποσες μετρησεις εκανες
Την ειχα παθει και εγω ετσι οταν μετρουσα σε διαφορες τυχαιες θεσεις στον χωρο
Στο νημα υπαρχουν πατερνς αλλα μπορεις να μπεις και στο Audyssey.com και να διαβασεις σχετικα
Οπως και να εχει βαλτα ολα μανιουαλ μικρα εφ οσον εχεις σαμπ ,ετσι προτεινει η Audyssey
acoustics
Πες μου τι πατερν χρησιμοποιησες (δλδ σε ποιες θεσεις) ,και ποσες μετρησεις εκανες
Την ειχα παθει και εγω ετσι οταν μετρουσα σε διαφορες τυχαιες θεσεις στον χωρο
Στο νημα υπαρχουν πατερνς αλλα μπορεις να μπεις και στο Audyssey.com και να διαβασεις σχετικα
Οπως και να εχει βαλτα ολα μανιουαλ μικρα εφ οσον εχεις σαμπ ,ετσι προτεινει η Audyssey
Απάντηση: Re: ΠΕΡΙ ΜΙΚΡΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΜΕΓΑΛΩΝ...
ευκολα ξεγελας ενα μικροφωνο οταν ξερεις-ή δεν ξερεις
acoustics
Senior Member
- 27 August 2007
- 642
Re: ΠΕΡΙ ΜΙΚΡΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΜΕΓΑΛΩΝ...
Έκανα τρεις μετρήσεις στον τριθέσιο καναπέ ακριβώς απέναντι από τα εμπρόσθια ηχεία και άλλες τρεις μετρήσεις σε πλευρικές θέσεις δεξιά και αριστερά από τον τριθέσιο καναπέ.
Δηλαδή, η πρόταση είναι μετά από το auto setup, ασχέτως τι βγάζει από μόνο του, να γυρίσω σε manual ρύθμιση και να δηλώσω όλα τα ηχεία Small? Τις συχνότητες crossover τι να τις κάνω?
Έκανα τρεις μετρήσεις στον τριθέσιο καναπέ ακριβώς απέναντι από τα εμπρόσθια ηχεία και άλλες τρεις μετρήσεις σε πλευρικές θέσεις δεξιά και αριστερά από τον τριθέσιο καναπέ.
Δηλαδή, η πρόταση είναι μετά από το auto setup, ασχέτως τι βγάζει από μόνο του, να γυρίσω σε manual ρύθμιση και να δηλώσω όλα τα ηχεία Small? Τις συχνότητες crossover τι να τις κάνω?
Απάντηση: Re: ΠΕΡΙ ΜΙΚΡΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΜΕΓΑΛΩΝ...
ελεγχο φασης με μπαταρια (το προτεινει και το οντισι) , και εδω μπορεις αθελα σου να βγαλεις ενα ηχειο εκτος φασης