Η αθανασια χτυπαει την πορτα των δισεκατομμυριουχων ...

Αυτό λέω... Aν αυτό to 1:1 γίνει με 100 1:1 εγκεφάλους? Θα υπάρχουν 100 άνθρωποι που θα νομίζουν οτι είναι εσύ. Θα ξεκινήσουν όλοι να πάνε στο ίδιο σπίτι, στην ίδια οικογένεια, όλοι μαζί... Σιγουρα εσύ δεν θα είσαι ένας απο αυτούς... :)))
Δες την ταινία "Μoon"... Το θέμα της είναι αυτό που συζητάμε...
Ίσως από την άλλη μεριά... να ξυπνήσουν αύριο 100 άτομα που όλοι να έχουν την εντύπωση ότι το προηγούμενο βράδυ συνδέθηκαν μ'ενα μηχάνημα ώστε να ενεργοποιήσουν το droid τους...!
 
Θα νιώθεις όμως ότι παραμενεις εσύ;

Και επίσης τι γίνεται αν κανείς 2 εσυ; Θα έχουν τα ίδια συναισθήματα; Την ίδια ηθική;
 
Πως θα νιώσεις όταν ενώ νομίζεις ότι είσαι εσυ ανακαλύψεις ότι είσαι το droid ?

Αυτό θα με προβληματίσει μόνο αν ξυπνήσω κάπου χωρίς να θυμάμαι πως βρέθηκα εκεί...
Βέβαια αυτό έχει ήδη συμβεί καμμιά 20αριά φορές μέχρι τώρα, αλλά ο έντονος κεφαλόπονος και η δίψα με καθησύχασαν. :)))
 
Αν πεθάνει ο παλιός εγκέφαλς, χάνεται το "εγώ", άσχετα με το αν οι μνήμες μεταφέρθηκαν αλλού.σε 1:1 εγκέφαλο.
Tείνω να πιστέψω οτι το "εγώ" εμφανίζεται και αρχίζει να καλλιεργείται ήδη απο τη στιγμή μετά την γονιμοποίηση του ωαρίου απο το σπερματοζωάριο. Και εκείνες τις πρώτες μέρες βέβαια δεν υπάρχει ακόμα εγκέφαλος...
 
Δε διαφωνώ στην ουσία (αν και διαφωνώ στο ότι εγώ πιστεύω ότι το εγώ καλλιεργείται μάλλον μετά τη γεννηση, δεν είναι τυχαίο το ότι δεν έχει καταγραφεί σε κανέναν ανάμνηση μέσα στη...μήτρα). Όμως το ΕΓΩ είναι κάτι πραγματικό. Και ως πραγματικό, έχει και φυσική υπόσταση. Και ως οτιδήποτε έχει φυσική υπόσταση, ΔΥΝΑΜΕΙ μπορεί είτε να αναπαραχθεί, είτε να μεταφερθεί.

....απλά είμαστε πολύ μακριά απ'τη στιγμή που θα το κατανοήσουμε, και ακόμα πιο μακριά απ'τη στιγμή που θα μπορέσουμε να το ελέγξουμε.


ΙΜΗΟ, προφανώς.
 
Η μνήμη δεν είναι το μοναδικό χαρακτηριστικό του "εγώ". Και προφανώς ένας ασχημάτιστος εγκέφαλος δεν μπορεί να επεξεργαστεί δεδομένα - πόσω μάλλον να τα αποθηκεύσει σαν μνήμες.
Για να μεταφερθεί το εγώ, θα πρέπει πρώτα να βρούμε με ποιό τρόπο συνδέεται με το φυσικό σώμα - με τον εγκέφαλο συγκεκριμένα, γιατί εκεί βρίσκεται...
 
Το Moon αναφερεται σε ΚΛΩΝΟΥΣ .... οχι σε cyborgs (που νομιζω οτι προσπαθει να πετυχει ο Ρωσος).
Oι κλωνοι ειναι 100% οργανικα αντιγραφα του προτυπου, με ολες τις μνημες (και αισθηματα) που ειχε
το προτυπο μεχρι μια δεδομενη στιγμη. Στο Moon εγινε ακριβως αυτο : αντι να πεθανει ο προηγουμενος
κλωνος βγηκε ο επομενος να τον αναζητησει και διασωσει ... οποτε οι μνημες τους (και τα βιωματα τους)
ΠΗΡΑΝ ΔΙΑΦΟΡΕΤΙΚΕΣ ΠΟΡΕΙΕΣ. Δεν μπορουσε ο ενας να ζει ακριβως την ζωη του αλλου, δεν υπηρχε
αντιστοιχηση 1:1 σε βιωματα.

Βεβαια, για να ηρεμησει ο μεσος θεατης .... ο πρωην αυτοθυσιαζεται για να δραπετευσει ο νυν.
Αλλα, τι γινεται ΑΝ και οι δυο συνεχιζαν να ζουν ???? Κατ'εμε θα ηταν δυο διαφορετικα πνευματα
με εξαιρετικα πολλες ομοιοτητες (οπως τα διδυμα) αλλα .... ΔΙΑΦΟΡΕΤΙΚΕΣ ΒΙΩΜΑΤΙΚΕΣ ΠΟΡΕΙΕΣ.

Case closed !!!!
 
Απάντηση: Re: Η αθανασια χτυπαει την πορτα των δισεκατομμυριουχων ...

Το Moon αναφερεται σε ΚΛΩΝΟΥΣ .... οχι σε cyborgs (που νομιζω οτι προσπαθει να πετυχει ο Ρωσος).
Oι κλωνοι ειναι 100% οργανικα αντιγραφα του προτυπου, με ολες τις μνημες (και αισθηματα) που ειχε
το προτυπο μεχρι μια δεδομενη στιγμη. Στο Moon εγινε ακριβως αυτο : αντι να πεθανει ο προηγουμενος
κλωνος βγηκε ο επομενος να τον αναζητησει και διασωσει ... οποτε οι μνημες τους (και τα βιωματα τους)
ΠΗΡΑΝ ΔΙΑΦΟΡΕΤΙΚΕΣ ΠΟΡΕΙΕΣ. Δεν μπορουσε ο ενας να ζει ακριβως την ζωη του αλλου, δεν υπηρχε
αντιστοιχηση 1:1 σε βιωματα.


Βεβαια, για να ηρεμησει ο μεσος θεατης .... ο πρωην αυτοθυσιαζεται για να δραπετευσει ο νυν.
Αλλα, τι γινεται ΑΝ και οι δυο συνεχιζαν να ζουν ???? Κατ'εμε θα ηταν δυο διαφορετικα πνευματα
με εξαιρετικα πολλες ομοιοτητες (οπως τα διδυμα) αλλα .... ΔΙΑΦΟΡΕΤΙΚΕΣ ΒΙΩΜΑΤΙΚΕΣ ΠΟΡΕΙΕΣ.

Case closed !!!!

Ο κλώνος λογικά θα έχει περισσότερες πιθανότητες επιτυχίας, παρά το cyborg.
Kαι προφανώς, μετά την αφύπνιση οι εμπειρίες που θα αποκτηθούν θα είναι διαφορετικές - αυτό δεν μας ενδιαφέρει... Μας νοιάζει η στιγμή του ξυπνήματος.
Μην θεωρείς σίγουρο οτι τα αισθήματα και τα συναισθήματα είναι θέμα μνήμης... Μάλλον σε άλλο τομέα του "εγώ" βρίσκονται...
 
Τα συναισθηματα ειναι ΚΑΙ θεμα μνημης, οπως ειναι και θεμα ιδιοσυγκρασιας/θελησης.
Εαν ειμαι συνεχως φτωχος δεν μπορω να αισθανθω την πληξη μιας κορασιδας στυλ Paris Hilton.
Ειμαστε αυτο που βιωσαμε (νομιζω ....)
 
ΚΑΙ θεμα μνήμης ίσως ναι... οχι μόνο θέμα μνήμης όμως...
Και έννοιες όπως η θέληση (που ανάφερες) ή η ψυχική αντοχή δεν είναι απαραίτητα θέμα μνήμης αλλά ίσως κατάλοιπα ή επιτεύγματα βιωμάτων/εμπειριών που ενδεχομένως δεν έχουν καν φιλτραρισθεί απο το "συνειδητό" ωστε να αφήσουν μνήμες...
 
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Αυτη η ψυχικη αντοχη ομως ... υποβοηθειται ΤΑ ΔΕΟΝΤΑ απο θετικα βιωματα (κρινομενα απο τον φορεα).
Μνημη και συναισθηματα μαλλον ΔΕΝ γινεται να απομονωθουν και επιμερισθουν .... (μαλλον !)
 
επιστημονικά αργεί ακόμη, οι γιατροί γνωρίζουν ότι και ο εγκέφαλος γερνάει και μάλιστα προς το παρόν δε μπορεί να αναπλαθεί, ο τύπος βρήκε τρόπο να πάρει λεφτα από τα κορόιδα


από την άλλη ακόμη και όσοι στέκονται μια χαρά βιολογικά γερνάνε στη νοοτροπία και τις ιδέες, τι θα γίνει άμα ζούνε πχ 500 χρόνια:

και αν γινότανε θα ήταν εφιαλτικό σενάριο, γιατί όπως είπε κάποιος, "ευτυχώς που υπάρχει και ο θάνατος, εδώ 100 χρόνια ζει ο άθρωπος και σκοτώνει και κλέβει για να μαζέψει κι' άλλα, να τα κάνει τι; φαντάσου να ζούσε για πάντα τι θα γινότανε"
 
Η χειροτερη σκεψη περι αθανασιας ειναι μια :

οταν ζεις συντομα ολα φανταζουν ανεπαναληπτα,
ομως, αν ζεις αιωνια .... ΟΛΑ μοιαζουν να ΕΠΑΝΑΛΑΜΒΑΝΟΝΤΑΙ.

Και αυτο ... μαλλον .... ισοδυναμει με κολαση.
 
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Εχω την εντύπωση οτι αν ποτε η ανθρωπότητα κατακτήσει την αθανασία, θα αφορά μόνο το 0,1% του πληθυσμού, αλλά είτε έτσι, είτε την δώσουν στα ευρύτερα στρώματα, η ανθρωπότητα θα έχει μόνο 100 χρόνια ζωής μπροστά της... Για πρακτικούς λόγους... Εκτός αν έχει προλάβει να φύγει στ'αστέρια...
 
Τα διλληματα που θα αντιμετωπισει το ατομο στα επομενα 200 χρονια
ΔΕΝ συγκρινονται ουτε κατα διαννοια με αυτα που εζησε μεχρι σημερα ....

Δεν ειναι μονο η Αθανασια .... ΕΙΝΑΙ Η ΩΡΙΜΟΤΗΤΑ ΚΑΙ Η ΕΠΙΓΝΩΣΗ.
Τολμω να πω οτι, δεδομενης της ανεπαρκους ωριμοτητας μου,
ευτυχως
δεν θα με προλαβουν τετοια διλληματα.
 
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Για να δούμε και τι λέει ο Jonathan Swift. Είναι σεντόνι, αλλά αξίζει τον κόπο.

One day, in much good company, I was asked by a person of quality,
“whether I had seen any of their _struldbrugs_, or immortals?” I said,
“I had not;” and desired he would explain to me “what he meant by such an
appellation, applied to a mortal creature.” He told me “that sometimes,
though very rarely, a child happened to be born in a family, with a red
circular spot in the forehead, directly over the left eyebrow, which was
an infallible mark that it should never die.” The spot, as he described
it, “was about the compass of a silver threepence, but in the course of
time grew larger, and changed its colour; for at twelve years old it
became green, so continued till five and twenty, then turned to a deep
blue: at five and forty it grew coal black, and as large as an English
shilling; but never admitted any further alteration.” He said, “these
births were so rare, that he did not believe there could be above eleven
hundred struldbrugs, of both sexes, in the whole kingdom; of which he
computed about fifty in the metropolis, and, among the rest, a young girl
born; about three years ago: that these productions were not peculiar to
any family, but a mere effect of chance; and the children of the
_struldbrugs_ themselves were equally mortal with the rest of the
people.”

I freely own myself to have been struck with inexpressible delight, upon
hearing this account: and the person who gave it me happening to
understand the Balnibarbian language, which I spoke very well, I could
not forbear breaking out into expressions, perhaps a little too
extravagant. I cried out, as in a rapture, “Happy nation, where every
child hath at least a chance for being immortal! Happy people, who enjoy
so many living examples of ancient virtue, and have masters ready to
instruct them in the wisdom of all former ages! but happiest, beyond all
comparison, are those excellent _struldbrugs_, who, being born exempt
from that universal calamity of human nature, have their minds free and
disengaged, without the weight and depression of spirits caused by the
continual apprehensions of death!” I discovered my admiration that I had
not observed any of these illustrious persons at court; the black spot on
the forehead being so remarkable a distinction, that I could not have
easily overlooked it: and it was impossible that his majesty, a most
judicious prince, should not provide himself with a good number of such
wise and able counsellors. Yet perhaps the virtue of those reverend
sages was too strict for the corrupt and libertine manners of a court:
and we often find by experience, that young men are too opinionated and
volatile to be guided by the sober dictates of their seniors. However,
since the king was pleased to allow me access to his royal person, I was
resolved, upon the very first occasion, to deliver my opinion to him on
this matter freely and at large, by the help of my interpreter; and
whether he would please to take my advice or not, yet in one thing I was
determined, that his majesty having frequently offered me an
establishment in this country, I would, with great thankfulness, accept
the favour, and pass my life here in the conversation of those superior
beings the _struldbrugs_, if they would please to admit me.”

The gentleman to whom I addressed my discourse, because (as I have
already observed) he spoke the language of Balnibarbi, said to me, with a
sort of a smile which usually arises from pity to the ignorant, “that he
was glad of any occasion to keep me among them, and desired my permission
to explain to the company what I had spoke.” He did so, and they talked
together for some time in their own language, whereof I understood not a
syllable, neither could I observe by their countenances, what impression
my discourse had made on them. After a short silence, the same person
told me, “that his friends and mine (so he thought fit to express
himself) were very much pleased with the judicious remarks I had made on
the great happiness and advantages of immortal life, and they were
desirous to know, in a particular manner, what scheme of living I should
have formed to myself, if it had fallen to my lot to have been born a
_struldbrug_.”

I answered, “it was easy to be eloquent on so copious and delightful a
subject, especially to me, who had been often apt to amuse myself with
visions of what I should do, if I were a king, a general, or a great
lord: and upon this very case, I had frequently run over the whole system
how I should employ myself, and pass the time, if I were sure to live for
ever.

“That, if it had been my good fortune to come into the world a
_struldbrug_, as soon as I could discover my own happiness, by
understanding the difference between life and death, I would first
resolve, by all arts and methods, whatsoever, to procure myself riches.
In the pursuit of which, by thrift and management, I might reasonably
expect, in about two hundred years, to be the wealthiest man in the
kingdom. In the second place, I would, from my earliest youth, apply
myself to the study of arts and sciences, by which I should arrive in
time to excel all others in learning. Lastly, I would carefully record
every action and event of consequence, that happened in the public,
impartially draw the characters of the several successions of princes and
great ministers of state, with my own observations on every point. I
would exactly set down the several changes in customs, language, fashions
of dress, diet, and diversions. By all which acquirements, I should be a
living treasure of knowledge and wisdom, and certainly become the oracle
of the nation.

“I would never marry after threescore, but live in a hospitable manner,
yet still on the saving side. I would entertain myself in forming and
directing the minds of hopeful young men, by convincing them, from my own
remembrance, experience, and observation, fortified by numerous examples,
of the usefulness of virtue in public and private life. But my choice
and constant companions should be a set of my own immortal brotherhood;
among whom, I would elect a dozen from the most ancient, down to my own
contemporaries. Where any of these wanted fortunes, I would provide them
with convenient lodges round my own estate, and have some of them always
at my table; only mingling a few of the most valuable among you mortals,
whom length of time would harden me to lose with little or no reluctance,
and treat your posterity after the same manner; just as a man diverts
himself with the annual succession of pinks and tulips in his garden,
without regretting the loss of those which withered the preceding year.

“These _struldbrugs_ and I would mutually communicate our observations
and memorials, through the course of time; remark the several gradations
by which corruption steals into the world, and oppose it in every step,
by giving perpetual warning and instruction to mankind; which, added to
the strong influence of our own example, would probably prevent that
continual degeneracy of human nature so justly complained of in all ages.

“Add to this, the pleasure of seeing the various revolutions of states
and empires; the changes in the lower and upper world; ancient cities in
ruins, and obscure villages become the seats of kings; famous rivers
lessening into shallow brooks; the ocean leaving one coast dry, and
overwhelming another; the discovery of many countries yet unknown;
barbarity overrunning the politest nations, and the most barbarous become
civilized. I should then see the discovery of the longitude, the
perpetual motion, the universal medicine, and many other great
inventions, brought to the utmost perfection.

“What wonderful discoveries should we make in astronomy, by outliving and
confirming our own predictions; by observing the progress and return of
comets, with the changes of motion in the sun, moon, and stars!”

I enlarged upon many other topics, which the natural desire of endless
life, and sublunary happiness, could easily furnish me with. When I had
ended, and the sum of my discourse had been interpreted, as before, to
the rest of the company, there was a good deal of talk among them in the
language of the country, not without some laughter at my expense. At
last, the same gentleman who had been my interpreter, said, “he was
desired by the rest to set me right in a few mistakes, which I had fallen
into through the common imbecility of human nature, and upon that
allowance was less answerable for them. That this breed of _struldbrugs_
was peculiar to their country, for there were no such people either in
Balnibarbi or Japan, where he had the honour to be ambassador from his
majesty, and found the natives in both those kingdoms very hard to
believe that the fact was possible: and it appeared from my astonishment
when he first mentioned the matter to me, that I received it as a thing
wholly new, and scarcely to be credited. That in the two kingdoms above
mentioned, where, during his residence, he had conversed very much, he
observed long life to be the universal desire and wish of mankind. That
whoever had one foot in the grave was sure to hold back the other as
strongly as he could. That the oldest had still hopes of living one day
longer, and looked on death as the greatest evil, from which nature
always prompted him to retreat. Only in this island of Luggnagg the
appetite for living was not so eager, from the continual example of the
_struldbrugs_ before their eyes.

“That the system of living contrived by me, was unreasonable and unjust;
because it supposed a perpetuity of youth, health, and vigour, which no
man could be so foolish to hope, however extravagant he may be in his
wishes. That the question therefore was not, whether a man would choose
to be always in the prime of youth, attended with prosperity and health;
but how he would pass a perpetual life under all the usual disadvantages
which old age brings along with it. For although few men will avow their
desires of being immortal, upon such hard conditions, yet in the two
kingdoms before mentioned, of Balnibarbi and Japan, he observed that
every man desired to put off death some time longer, let it approach ever
so late: and he rarely heard of any man who died willingly, except he
were incited by the extremity of grief or torture. And he appealed to
me, whether in those countries I had travelled, as well as my own, I had
not observed the same general disposition.”

After this preface, he gave me a particular account of the _struldbrugs_
among them. He said, “they commonly acted like mortals till about thirty
years old; after which, by degrees, they grew melancholy and dejected,
increasing in both till they came to fourscore. This he learned from
their own confession: for otherwise, there not being above two or three
of that species born in an age, they were too few to form a general
observation by. When they came to fourscore years, which is reckoned the
extremity of living in this country, they had not only all the follies
and infirmities of other old men, but many more which arose from the
dreadful prospect of never dying. They were not only opinionative,
peevish, covetous, morose, vain, talkative, but incapable of friendship,
and dead to all natural affection, which never descended below their
grandchildren. Envy and impotent desires are their prevailing passions.
But those objects against which their envy seems principally directed,
are the vices of the younger sort and the deaths of the old. By
reflecting on the former, they find themselves cut off from all
possibility of pleasure; and whenever they see a funeral, they lament and
repine that others have gone to a harbour of rest to which they
themselves never can hope to arrive. They have no remembrance of
anything but what they learned and observed in their youth and
middle-age, and even that is very imperfect; and for the truth or
particulars of any fact, it is safer to depend on common tradition, than
upon their best recollections. The least miserable among them appear to
be those who turn to dotage, and entirely lose their memories; these meet
with more pity and assistance, because they want many bad qualities which
abound in others.

“If a _struldbrug_ happen to marry one of his own kind, the marriage is
dissolved of course, by the courtesy of the kingdom, as soon as the
younger of the two comes to be fourscore; for the law thinks it a
reasonable indulgence, that those who are condemned, without any fault of
their own, to a perpetual continuance in the world, should not have their
misery doubled by the load of a wife.

“As soon as they have completed the term of eighty years, they are looked
on as dead in law; their heirs immediately succeed to their estates; only
a small pittance is reserved for their support; and the poor ones are
maintained at the public charge. After that period, they are held
incapable of any employment of trust or profit; they cannot purchase
lands, or take leases; neither are they allowed to be witnesses in any
cause, either civil or criminal, not even for the decision of meers and
bounds.

“At ninety, they lose their teeth and hair; they have at that age no
distinction of taste, but eat and drink whatever they can get, without
relish or appetite. The diseases they were subject to still continue,
without increasing or diminishing. In talking, they forget the common
appellation of things, and the names of persons, even of those who are
their nearest friends and relations. For the same reason, they never can
amuse themselves with reading, because their memory will not serve to
carry them from the beginning of a sentence to the end; and by this
defect, they are deprived of the only entertainment whereof they might
otherwise be capable.

“The language of this country being always upon the flux, the
_struldbrugs_ of one age do not understand those of another; neither are
they able, after two hundred years, to hold any conversation (farther
than by a few general words) with their neighbours the mortals; and thus
they lie under the disadvantage of living like foreigners in their own
country.”


This was the account given me of the _struldbrugs_, as near as I can
remember. I afterwards saw five or six of different ages, the youngest
not above two hundred years old, who were brought to me at several times
by some of my friends; but although they were told, “that I was a great
traveller, and had seen all the world,” they had not the least curiosity
to ask me a question; only desired “I would give them _slumskudask_,” or
a token of remembrance; which is a modest way of begging, to avoid the
law, that strictly forbids it, because they are provided for by the
public, although indeed with a very scanty allowance.

They are despised and hated by all sorts of people. When one of them is
born, it is reckoned ominous, and their birth is recorded very
particularly so that you may know their age by consulting the register,
which, however, has not been kept above a thousand years past, or at
least has been destroyed by time or public disturbances. But the usual
way of computing how old they are, is by asking them what kings or great
persons they can remember, and then consulting history; for infallibly
the last prince in their mind did not begin his reign after they were
fourscore years old.

They were the most mortifying sight I ever beheld; and the women more
horrible than the men. Besides the usual deformities in extreme old age,
they acquired an additional ghastliness, in proportion to their number of
years, which is not to be described; and among half a dozen, I soon
distinguished which was the eldest, although there was not above a
century or two between them.

The reader will easily believe, that from what I had hear and seen, my
keen appetite for perpetuity of life was much abated. I grew heartily
ashamed of the pleasing visions I had formed; and thought no tyrant could
invent a death into which I would not run with pleasure, from such a
life. The king heard of all that had passed between me and my friends
upon this occasion, and rallied me very pleasantly; wishing I could send
a couple of _struldbrugs_ to my own country, to arm our people against
the fear of death; but this, it seems, is forbidden by the fundamental
laws of the kingdom, or else I should have been well content with the
trouble and expense of transporting them.

I could not but agree, that the laws of this kingdom relative to the
_struldbrugs_ were founded upon the strongest reasons, and such as any
other country would be under the necessity of enacting, in the like
circumstances. Otherwise, as avarice is the necessary consequence of old
age, those immortals would in time become proprietors of the whole
nation, and engross the civil power, which, for want of abilities to
manage, must end in the ruin of the public.